Trad efficiency

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NatureBoi
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Trad efficiency

Post by NatureBoi » Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:30 am

What is the best way to set up a stance when not swinging leads?
I've always used the rope to equalize the anchors, but this takes more time when beginning to climb the next pitch, more so with 2 seconds.

Be interested to know what other people are doing re cordelette's etc.

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Cormac

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:53 am

When not swinging leads, use a cordellette. Have two, so that you can leave one in the stance and climb with the second one. I find 6m of 6mm cord works well.
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Marshall1 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:11 am

.
Last edited by Marshall1 on Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

Old Smelly
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Old Smelly » Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:40 am

I agree with the cordellette idea - that is the solution many professional guides use. Of course there is some controversy around whether one could use an Alpine Equaliser, those long Wild Country slings rigged as Equallete's or a piece of rope. I use all three, depending on the circumstances of the stance one has to choose which is best suited. The issue with using slings as opposed to rope or cord is that slings should not be shock loaded but this is easily avoided as long as one is climbing with a rope :thumright - as it is then the shock absorbing part of the system and the slings are rated, so as long as the "fall" from both a second or a leader loads the rope and then the anchor system you should have nothing to worry about!
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:15 am

There's nothing wrong with shock loading slings... The slings will be fine! It's just you that will suffer :lol:

I don't like Equalettes etc because they take your nice independent anchors and reduce them to a single point where if any one strand fails, the whole thing goes.
Happy climbing
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ant
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by ant » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:24 am

Hi Cormac,

What works for me is a 120cm sling. I can usually equalize 3 pieces with it, or at worst, equalize 2, and then back myself up with a rope to the 3rd.

When changing, I clip the seconds rope into the 3rd piece, before unclipping mine from the 3rd piece.
Make sure the seconds attachments are always 'under' the leaders and the ropes shouldn't tangle.

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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by johannlanz » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:26 am

I agree that 2 cordelette's are the way to go.

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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by SNORT » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:57 pm

Tying in with ropes using clove hitches is always the most efficient in any circumstance (except of course when abseiling). It is less cluttered, you do not require screw gates, and you do not need to carry cordelletes and extra slings, and they are very quick to equalize and adjust if you need to. As your partner arrives at the stance tie him/her off with a separate biner or tie off your partner on the same biner and flip the biner over so you can undo yourself when you need to lead off. It takes some practise to ensure that you do not cross the ropes so your partners ropes are under yours if you are leading off. If you swing leads his ropes stay over yours and you do not need to flip the biner.

The fact that you are tied in with a clove hitch means that the chance of disconnection is virtually zero as the clove hitch is clearly visible and is tight on the biner. Biners on slings can get confused and jumbled and leave one of the party vulnerable.

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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Hector » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:02 pm

I like to get safe with a clove hitch on one bomber piece, shout off belay, then build the rest of the stance and tie in with clove hitches while the second puts on shoes etc. Then get the second on belay. While they’re climbing either use slings to create a master point, or clip extra biners to the various pieces for the second to clove hitch. The key is to know which direction you’ll lead off on the next pitch, and to ensure your second’s ropes are clipped under yours at the stance. Restacking the rope is a bigger problem than how to clip in – on a small or hanging stance there’s invariably a snarl up, especially with double ropes. On hanging stances make progressively longer loops over your shoulder, foot or anchor. When you hand this over to the second your ends will feed out as short loops beneath long loops – less chance of snarling.
Sometimes I’ll try restacking the ropes when the second is nearing the stance, having it done when they arrive. But this generally only works on a nice ledge, and even then it’s easy to cock it up.
Belaying in guide mode makes everything much easier as you have hands free and your belay loop isn't loaded.

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henkg
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by henkg » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:06 pm

Hi Nic...Dynema/Dynex slings do break, important to tie in with the rope to these.

http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/slings-at-anchors/

I prefer the sliding X on a 120cm sling.
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by SNORT » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:18 pm

I use a reverso now but not in typical "guide mode" whereby the reverso is directly attached to the anchor and you end up standing facing the rock. I sit down and connect the ropes to the reverso as you would normally to your harness when belaying the leader. I then use the rope from the anchor and make a clove hitch next to me and clip the guide ring of the reverso to it. This way it is at your waste, it locks and you can release it easily by standing up if it is locked and somebody is hanging in the air. Difficult to explain but I shall take a photo sometime and post.

It also means that when if you are swinging leads all you have to do is disconnect the back ring of the reverso from the rope clove hitch and you are ready to belay.

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:48 pm

henkg wrote:Hi Nic...Dynema/Dynex slings do break, important to tie in with the rope to these.

http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/slings-at-anchors/

I prefer the sliding X on a 120cm sling.

All slings can break, particularly when they are mis-used like larks footing Dynema to nylon etc. It was a poor attempt at a joke.
Happy climbing
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Old Smelly
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Old Smelly » Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:22 pm

I know what Snort means but in essence it is better to use three points of attachment at a stance - so even with 2 ropes you do not cover that unless you use a sling to a third point. That is easy enough and with clove hitches you can adjust the ropes to equalise all three strands to your harness.

BUT if you are swinging leads this is not as easy as it sounds and generally becomes a big mess with the rope needing to be reflaked and the one who is leading off having to shuffle his knots out from under another's. Don't get me wrong - it can be quite good between experienced teams. However the reality is that the equallette or cordellette gives the opportunity for the leader to be out of the system, which is often advantageous if the 2nd struggles - why guides use cordellette systems and self locking belay methods. It also means less direct strain and discomfort on your body. As I mentioned previously slings do not need to take shock if you do things properly and the single masterpoint is a method often used in rescue situations so I suspect this is a bit of BS argument - see the Rigging plates used by S&R - besides which you can clove hitch the load bearing biner with a rope if you are that paranoid.

Anyhow - try the different methods and see what works for you - as long as you are safe.
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:38 pm

Old Smelly wrote:and the single masterpoint is a method often used in rescue situations so I suspect this is a bit of BS argument - see the Rigging plates used by S&R - besides which you can clove hitch the load bearing biner with a rope if you are that paranoid..
It's not the single point that is the problem, it's that all the points are joined dependently together. If any one point goes/the sling is cut the whole lot moves drastically or falls apart totally. Therefore I prefer to use the rope/cordellette and make each point independent avoiding the single point of failure model.

Yes, in rescue we do build systems with a single master point, usually using a BFK. They are however made up of many independent anchor points so that the failure of any one point will not destroy the entire anchor. Also, with the exception of some very special circumstances, we always build a second system as a backup in case of the main system failing.
Happy climbing
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bad
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by bad » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:40 pm

You are only as good as your last piece

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Tristan
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Tristan » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:07 pm

I feel like buying beer...so a beer if you beat me setting up an equalized belay, with me using a cordelette and you using any of the other suggested methods. Rules are simple: 3 or more pieces pre-placed in a "reasonably normal" situation (IE, say 1-2m apart spread in a 50-60 degree arc), the belay must impart equal forces on the anchors when the second falls (I'm sure Nic would love to include a guage of sorts here :-) )

Then a beer for every time :
- I beat you in starting to lead the next pitch
- rescue the person I'm belaying while they are hanging on the rope
- exit the cluster-fck and go call a chopper
- change from climbing to descending once the second arrives at the stance

To make it entertaining we can do a hanging belay variation as well.

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NatureBoi
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by NatureBoi » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:15 am

Thnx, Okes
Will give the Cordelette a try.

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Cormac

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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by SNORT » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:45 am

I do not agree that 3 points are necessary if your other two points are good. When you sit down on a good flat ledge your arse friction also amounts to a good point. I am not the heaviest person around (60Kg) but I have never been pulled off a stance and onto my belay by a second even if he weighed 90kg.

Even if you use 5 points, you can still connect the rope like you would use a cordellette and equalize the points. And it still means you can use clove hitches or loops if you prefer. Pull up 5m or so of rope and make a loop of the rope and equalize. We are talking about efficiency here!

It is only if you have used all the rope that you have a problem and that is very rare.

I strongly advise you to use the rope and get used to it. You may not always have a cordellete. You will be most efficient with the system you get used to

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:38 pm

We are talking about trad efficiency with one important proviso: when NOT switching leads. If you use the rope to build the stance, you are attached to it. Either you have to untie and swap ends with your second(s) or you use a cordellette/similar and are not part of the stance yourself.

If you are switching leads, the rope is best I totally agree
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Old Smelly
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Old Smelly » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:18 pm

No insult Nic but the equallette does allow all the points to be loaded equally - better than a cordellette - where the shortest strand will ALWAYS be the most loaded point. Given that if one point fails there will be some adjustment that the ELASTIC rope would need to catch - but again in some cases the cordellette is worse because if the point of loading shifts to either side then the cordellette strands become very unequally loaded. The equallette should not fall apart if one strand is cut - then you have done something very wrong.

Tristan I bet that an alpine equaliser can be set up as fast - if not faster than a cordellete - and be just as safe with a knot on the centre strand - with very little practice. It will also be able to adjust the point of loading easier.

Snort - I respect your viewpoint - I have belayed a lot of weighty partners your way with a purely rope stance. It is a lot more uncomfortable than being out of the system and just using the rope does often lead to confusion. I did say that in a well streamlined partnership this may not happen, but I agree with Tristan in terms of his affirmations as to why being out the system is better.

Previously I started to write about how people are critical / resistant to different ideas and I think that is par for the course. It is bad to reject new solutions without giving them a chance - so again I say try as many of the different methods as you feel fit - there will come a time when you will need to have variations in your arsenal - even the "All rope"guys :thumright
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:57 pm

Old Smelly wrote:No insult Nic but the equallette does allow all the points to be loaded equally - better than a cordellette - where the shortest strand will ALWAYS be the most loaded point. Given that if one point fails there will be some adjustment that the ELASTIC rope would need to catch - but again in some cases the cordellette is worse because if the point of loading shifts to either side then the cordellette strands become very unequally loaded. The equallette should not fall apart if one strand is cut - then you have done something very wrong.
My apologies I assumed equallette = Alpine equaliser = one of those long sling things with a ring to clip into. A quick google found that it wasn't so.

FWIW: We've done some experimentation (using rope only for the rigging) on multipoint anchors and relative anchor loading. Number of strands to a particular anchor affects loading more than stretchiness generally, with exceptions at the extremes. Anchors towards the center of a multipoint anchor tend to receive a proportionally larger share of the loading. Clove hitches are better than knots (mostly) because they have much less inherent stretch and are easier to adjust. Because of all these factors and the difficulty of estimating these in the field with rescue (not climbing) loads, we actually don't really train "equalized" anchors, we rather emphasize the favouring of better anchors and reducing loads on weaker anchors - a best distribution of the load, rather than equal distribution.

That all being said, climbing loads are relatively low when compared to rescue loads and two good or three reasonable placements that are somewhat equalized will be fine.

Do note though that if you use a rope for two points and a sling for the third, due to the (almost) total lack of stretch in the sling, an "equalized" anchor will probably only load the sling.
Happy climbing
Nic

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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by henkg » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:49 pm

In that spirit Old Smelly, would be nice if one of the rope only guys could sketch the system. Cause I cannot figure out how to equalize 3 points with two ropes using clove hitches.
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by SNORT » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:21 pm

Cormac I can meet you at CR and show you one or two tricks sometime. We can make a video and post it

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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Old Smelly » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:11 pm

OK - Arrive at stance - put in three pieces of gear -clove hitch yourself to one with one rope and the other with the other rope. Then - using one of the strands that is hanging from a clove hitch tie a figure of eight and attach it to your belay loop - it should have a bit of slack. Now take the loose end from the figure of eight attached to the belay loop and clove hitch it to the last piece. Equalise all the strands using the clove hitch. SIMPLE
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

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henkg
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by henkg » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:37 pm

Understood. Disadvantage i can see is that you do not have a central tie in where you can attach reverso to. Belaying with reverso in guide mode is so much more comfy and the autolocking feature allows at least some fiddling while belaying.
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by SNORT » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:53 pm

Then take one rope, make tie off loop and use as if you had a cordelette

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NatureBoi
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by NatureBoi » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:22 am

Sure Charles, Lets set something up,
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by mokganjetsi » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:54 am

my 2c: got the trango alpine equaliser and it's the bomb! lightweight, robust, easy-as-pie and versatile (you can have 1, 2 or 3 clip points; if extending to only one point you have a looooong sling as well - used it on crowded hanging stances). can easily clove hitch points or knot it to make it static. the only downside is that it will hurt your wallet quite a bit (and more so if you need 2).

oh, and if you are clipped in on your belay loop i find it faster to untie and swap ropes than having to run the whole shebang through for you to be on top again.

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:12 am

Here's the picture of how it works

Three point anchor joined with two ropes
Picture1.jpg
Picture1.jpg (38.5 KiB) Viewed 2507 times
How to rig it:
1. Arrive at stance, place piece on red rope, clove hitch it off (I'm going to describe this from left to right but you can set it up in any order)
2. Off belay etc etc
3. Place middle piece on green rope, clove hitch it off
4. Adjust clove hitches to allow you to be positioned correctly, if needed
5. Place second piece on green rope, clip it through the carabiner but don't clove hitch it yet
6. Tie master point using the red rope and the bight of the green rope
7. Adjust the second length of the rope going to the second piece on the green rope and clove hitch it off
8. Attach Guide/Reverso to master point (or yourself if you don't have a plaquette style device)
9. Pull up and stack rope
10. Clip your buddy's rope into your belay device
11. On Belay etc etc
Happy climbing
Nic

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henkg
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Re: Trad efficiency

Post by henkg » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:36 am

Brilliant Nick, will give it a try.
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

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