Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

For the posting and discussion of Access Issues and Closures for Areas around South Africa.
Old Smelly
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Old Smelly » Wed May 10, 2017 8:38 am

So what are you proposing, FORKET?

If the handful of climbers continue to climb straight up to the Eagles nest then ALL climbers will be legally banned from Chosspile within a matter of weeks, and Bronkies most likely too - as we climbers demonstrate that we cannot discipline ourselves.

That may be ok for someone who continually trespasses on someone's land and then tries to pass the blame onto someone else by some obscure way of justification, but what about the rest of us who would like to legally climb on land that the owner permits us access to? What about if we TRULY care about the environment instead of our own selfish game?

SO what is your real problem? Is this a desperate craving for attention or some other agenda where you go after the organisation that is trying to maintain access for climbers and who, as you have observed yourself, is the only one who constantly tries to get access sorted out to sport climbing crags? Current Chosspile access was negotiated by MCSA members with all climbers in mind. It seems to me that you are going after the wrong people because the MCSA is an easy target for all your juvenile frustration and ego seeking self elevation.

So I ask again - do you have any alternative solution to how one could manage Chosspile?

I think not - I think all of your talk is just the ego centric ramblings of a Rebel without a clue!
Last edited by Old Smelly on Wed May 10, 2017 3:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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DeanVDM
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by DeanVDM » Wed May 10, 2017 9:41 am

I'm quite happy to share the crags with these beautiful creatures.
Wilgepoort Eagles flying - DeanVDM.JPG
Wilgepoort eagles
Wilgepoort Eagles flying - DeanVDM.JPG (161.48 KiB) Viewed 897 times

deSouzaFrank
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by deSouzaFrank » Wed May 10, 2017 11:54 am

I would love to hear what the lady, who not too long ago, went off on a tangent, on Facebook about climbers at bronkies, has to say about Eberts theory of having the nest sight exposed to climbers

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Forket
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Forket » Wed May 10, 2017 4:53 pm

I propose the closure of upper tonquani for autum and winter to allow for Eagles to return to their nest and breed.

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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by deSouzaFrank » Wed May 10, 2017 7:19 pm

What an excellent idea Ebert. A "hiker" like me wouldn't mind at all if ALL crags with these birds nesting,closed during the breeding season. But thats just me, a hiker who doesnt give a toss if im just HIKING an 18( yes 18, i know. Sssooo totally uncool duh 6a or 5.10a) at a shitty ol crag far far away from twats with their heads stuck so far up their own arses, that they can no longer see and respect what others find important, What ever it may be, in this case eagles nesting, or in my case just "hiking", if it somehow doesn't conform to their own ideologies.

I bet you, Ebert, that if you can be honest with yourself, just for a minute, go and search some of your first posts and im pretty sure some of them will give you that horrible feeling running across your cheecks called embarrassment. Now as kak as that might feel, take comfort in the fact that this is only due to you having grown...a bit. Now just imagine how you MIGHT feel, after growing...a bit, reading this thread a few years from now.

I know you have on many occasions promised to never post on this forum again, all empty promises, obviously. But i promise today, Ebert, to never again read any of the posts you make, as honestly, they have always been nonsensical and only pisses a person off at how kak ignorant people can be. Cheers Ebert.

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dirktalma
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by dirktalma » Thu May 11, 2017 8:07 pm

Eish.

The following as a bit off topic, as of lately:

I read a great interview with Dr Rob Davies after struggling to find proper research in the effect of humans in close (climbers) proximity.
Read it here: http://www.africanraptors.org/the-verre ... ob-davies/

Here is the part that I feel is relevant:
eagle interview.jpg
www.africanraptors.org
eagle interview.jpg (176.9 KiB) Viewed 793 times
This type of behaviour by the eagles is likely what happens at Chosspile.

I think I understand two things about black eagles a bit better after reading the article:
1. Noise in close proximity and climbing past or close to them regularly doesn't influence them as much as we would think.
2. One of the main reasons for them leaving a nest would be due to a decline in rock hyrax (dassie) population in the area, due to development or some other reason.

Interesting facts:
1. "David Allan noted that Verreaux’s Eagles in the Magaliesberg breed more successfully during drought years than high rainfall years – this paradox arises from the hyrax need to move farther from their rocky shelters to find food when it gets dry and become more exposed to predation." - from the article.
2. Emoyeni, the female black eagle at Walter Sisulu is at least 40 years old. The botanical gardens were only opened in 1982...
Ebert: I propose the closure of upper tonquani for autum and winter to allow for Eagles to return to their nest and breed.
Normally, the procedure for making a proposal is to put the facts together, formulate a proposal and submit it to the MCSA or relevant authority. If you feel so strong about it, put pen to paper and do it.

Maar ek dink jy poep net stof.

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Forket
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Forket » Thu May 11, 2017 10:31 pm

Dickie, I love your response!!! I don't want any crags closed, I just want Chosspile open and will suggest anything to make people think about how closing their favorite crag sounds. Happy to see someone in support of humans and eagles coexisting!!!

The climbers at Chosspile have never infringed upon the eagles' well being. The eagles has brought so much happiness to the few that have spent countless hours at the base of the crag and in doing so, created a respect for the birds more than anything else in the world can!

I wish that other's in control of our mountains can see this and fight for our access to the crags instead of cowardly giving it up without a fight.

RIP LOTR

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dirktalma
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by dirktalma » Thu May 11, 2017 11:52 pm

Ebert, you might love my response, but you won't approve of my opinion. I believe I might have mislead you by stating that the quoted part of the article is the part that I feel is relevant. The entire interview is relevant.
A common problem in society is that we only take from research that which helps our own argument and fuels our own desire. We so easily fail to look at the situation holistically and as a whole.

Habituating these eagles to humans isn't necessarily a good thing. We cannot assume that our influence is necessarily positive without properly understanding the situation. If you read the entire interview, you would realize how little we know about these animals. Academics and scientists are usually quick to inform you how little they actually know about their subject and that is evident to me from the little bit that I have read.

I find this research fascinating and intriguing, but I do agree that it would be best to close the crag until October. The probability of exposing the birds to human interaction having a better effect on them than leaving them be is just way too low in my opinion to take the chance.
Forket wrote: Happy to see someone in support of humans and eagles coexisting!!!
Yes, myself, yourself and everyone participating in this thread feel the same way. To me, it looks like you are the only person who thinks this is a fight. Ask yourself whether coexisting with them means moving closer into their bubble or getting out of their bubble and giving them space to exist under conditions that the available research has shown to work. I haven't got the answer, but neither have you.

Ebert, the point I want to leave with you is that until we start participating in this discussion objectively and constructively by looking at the situation from every party's perspective (climbers, MCSA, the law and the eagles), we will never find the real and lasting solutions to these problems. Jislaaik, thats the engineer in me talking.

Eish, I should be studying.

Old Smelly
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Old Smelly » Fri May 12, 2017 9:47 am

The one certain thing about all of this is that we as climbers do not get to make this choice!

I know some people are taking quite a while to catch on, so I will spell it out again: (The MCSA mail near the beginning was quite clear for those of us who can read)

THE EAGLE PEOPLE - SUPPORTED BY THE AUTHORITIES - WILL BAN US CLIMBERS FROM THE CRAG IF WE GO NEAR THE NEST!

Do you get that Eternal TROLL?

Justin at this point I would request that you tell me how to make the TYPE SET Clearer/ larger or FLASH?

Clearly they do not want habituated Eagles...end of argument.

NOT OUR CHOICE!

Stay away or get banned...

GETTIT?!
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DieGesteweldeKat
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by DieGesteweldeKat » Fri May 12, 2017 10:53 am

Excuse Ebert, he recently had to realise he is a small fish in a very large pond where shouting the loudest doesn't draw much attention.

He's also just started his career as a young working geologist (he been bragging about his degree) and is by this point realising how little he actually knows about his field of study after 4 years. He's starting to realise there are people with way more knowledge out there.

And then someone came along and closed his favourite crag for no reason, while he is 1000's km away digging a hole in the ground, and he's pissed. Clearly the MCSA are really just a bunch of old wankers who are out to ruin his fun. The MCSA also does nothing for access, has no members that are real climbers or even mountaineers and are completely out of touch with reality. The current state off access to mountains and wilderness areas in South Africa is clearly a result of poor decision making by the MCSA over the last odd century.

Now many doctors, psychologists and vets would prescribe a .38 lead tabled but seeing as he's not a horse that would probably be frowned upon.
Maybe he just needs a good pk or 3. OR maybe he should spend more time helping open new crags and develop climbing instead of being a whiny little bitch? :thumright

Ansie
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Ansie » Sat May 13, 2017 6:54 pm

I heard that there is a new Ebola outbreak in the DRC...

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Liz
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Liz » Sat May 13, 2017 10:06 pm

Sho, I can't believe all this hate just because Ebert has his own opinion. These attacks are really quite disconcerting

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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Ansie » Sat May 13, 2017 11:45 pm

Everyone has an opinion, and apparently everyone has a right to one. But that doesnt make all opinions equally worthy. Besides his opinions are more than just words. He actually acts on them, ignores requests from the people who arrange access to crags, ignores conservation efforts to protect endangered animals and admits to trespassing. So if you think we should al be nice to him because he has an opinion then you are in for a suprise. Why should we tolerate such antisocial behaviour? This is not kindergarten.

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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Warren G » Sun May 14, 2017 7:07 am

Hi Liz, I found your reply most insightful: I have often wondered who it is that is willing to share a rope with Ebert, and for what reason, but now I understand the psychology and rationality of those people, and I thank you for this.

Recently I have been watching a bit of Fox News to understand the thinking of Trump, and his supporters, and they share a similar logic to what you have displayed above. I have seen similar thoughts displayed by other political thinkers and opinion makers, and I am humbled to see that you all constantly remind us of the nature of the tolerant environment we live in: you're so right that its great we can all voice opinions to one another, that we have the freedom to move around the country, and we are often willing to help each other for mutual gain, and we can do as we wish to a greater extent. So Wonderful! But Liz, I don't know about you, but I was brought up to believe that these are norms to expect, and so I forget just what an amazing society we live in (insert sad face), and thank you again for reminding me. Instead, I focus on what people say and do, rather than celebrating societies tolerance to peoples opinions and freedom of actions.
Sandbagging is a dirty game

Old Smelly
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Old Smelly » Mon May 15, 2017 10:42 am

I think we must realise this is a good point that Liz makes. Not the bit about the trespassing or getting all climbers banned from Chosspile - that's patently not an "own opinion" - that's a lot more, and is likely to draw a lot of reaction from everyone! Rather about the way forum members respond to his posts.

This post is about climbing restrictions at Chosspile to preserve an endangered species.

No matter what comments are made and how offensive we find them it doesn't mean we should allow the forum to get violent or aggressive. The idea of the forum is too read the responses and make informed decisions from them. In this case you will hopefully conclude that it is best for climbers to respect the climbing ban in the breeding season.

Any opinions you form on any individuals should remain your opinions - yes - one can show your irritation at some viewpoints and express your frustration/ disgust but I think being frustrated with someone else's posts doesn't mean we should attack the person - verbally or physically. A forum is meant to allow all viewpoints to come forward - so lets retain that value and rather argue the point - not attack the person.

I think it is actually helpful if we keep our opinions of the individual to ourselves but I get it that sometimes we all get kind of hot under the collar and frustrated. It is worthwhile considering that that may be the Trolls desired response from you...
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Ansie
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Ansie » Mon May 15, 2017 11:31 am

Oh come one. We are not "snowflakes" in need of a "safe space" . I am pretty sure Eberts skin is thick enough and he will not be left with any psychological scars. Besides when one of us needs a belay we will gladly tie in to a rope with anyone else that is available and capable regardless of their world view and opinions. But lets just be clear on one thing....if anyone thinks that they are so special that they should be allowed to trespass in one of only a few places where an endangered animal is breeding, then they deserve much worse than a few threats on a forum. No one will infect Ebert with Ebola on purpose nor will they give him a lead pill. But if I see someone climbing under an Eagle's nest I might just kick them in the groin before notifying the authorities. Being "threatening " and insulting on the forum is just one way to make it clear how strongly we feel about it. And yes, maybe the trolling was just bait....but some of us just cant resist taking it. And truth be told without that this forum would be a lot less funny.

Deon
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Deon » Tue May 16, 2017 2:26 pm

Why would anyone take the chance to climb under or next to the eagles? Even if they don't mind, why take the chance and maybe chase them away.
I would think if there is only a 0.1% chance that the eagle would not come back because of one persons actions, why risk it?
Does your route mean s that much to you?
Unfortunately there are always people who put their own selfish goals above nature... That is why we have rules, not for the many who don't need rules, but for the few who are idiots!

Personally I can't understand why anyone would need to be told to not climb near an eagles nest... but that's just me

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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Ansie » Tue May 16, 2017 2:34 pm

I think it is not only just about scaring the eagles away from their nest. A few people have argued that they are not bothered by noise or the presence of humans. But perhaps we should also consider that the habituation of wild animals to the presence of humans is also a problem in itself. They should be scared of us, because we are dangerous. Eagles cannot tell whether they are dealing with a nature loving climber that can onsight 8a + versus someone who wants to catch it to keep as an exotic pet or use its feathers for muti. So lets just stay away for a while and go climb somewhere else.

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CragRat
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by CragRat » Wed May 17, 2017 8:56 am

The one common denominator here is the Eagles - If we got rid of them life would return to normal :hapban

Ansie
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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Ansie » Wed May 17, 2017 9:26 am

Well you will have to start pushing the grade 30's then so you could climb to their nests and eat their eggs

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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by hendriks » Wed May 17, 2017 10:20 am

CragRat wrote:The one common denominator here is the Eagles - If we got rid of them life would return to normal :hapban
Black Eagles are quite large. Should have enough meat for decent biltong. Else I'm sure I can come up with a nice recipe for an oven roasted eagle

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Re: Climbing Restrictions Chosspile

Post by Ansie » Wed May 17, 2017 10:31 am

Ansie wrote:Well you will have to start pushing the grade 30's then so you could climb to their nests and eat their eggs
Haha.. oh ofcourse its Colin. Well you should have no problem stealing their eggs then.

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