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 Post subject: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:46 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Apropos the mess at Rocklands. I have been avoiding on clicking the article by Delaney. But now I have and I am incensed.

I was at De Pakhuys about 18 months ago and quite frankly it was disgusting. Don't think I will return. It is patently obvious that Bouldering is the LCD of climbing followed by bolted areas…..It attracts too many low life who don't give a shit and who leave it lying around.

Alex Honnold, is of the view that by preventing bolting at places like Blouberg and Yellowwood I am stifling progress. The last time bolters were at YW I found shit and toilet paper just meters away from the start of Prime Time Direct. Now one of the premier climbing areas in the world is in crisis and just one climber pitched up to help clean up the place. Meanwhile poor kids from the local community are commandeered to do climbers’ dirty work. WTF.!

If this is progress I am happy to stifle it.

Delaney, your heart is in the right place and kudos to you for cleaning up but the landowners are really responsible. They are the ones making money out of this. And they should be doing what you are doing.

If I had the money that Bill Gate has I would buy up all the land in the Cederberg and keep the low life out of there. That is what guys like Chouinard and others have done in Patagonia with their money.


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:27 am 
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i foresee (again), a debate......

........aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnddddddddddd....................GO!


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:33 am 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Well I invite the crowd that went to clean up the place to comment. Oops, sorry the one guy from Pretoria.

I was at Spizkoppe some time ago and with a pair of fire tongues I collected a huge pile of toilet paper and shit and burnt it all. Took me a couple of hours to clean the area where all the bolted routes are at the base of the SW wall. Until bolts arrived at Spizkoppe, there was no problem.

Wonder what it is like now.


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:55 am 
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I would like to call you a hypocrit...why do you own a gym that promotes bouldering and sport climbing when you obviously hate it soooooooooooo much? Maybe you should turn it into a trad gym?


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:04 am 
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Real Name: Justin Lawson
Whether he be a hypocrit or not Snort is unfortunately correct :( (I do look forward to the response though :)

It's not everyone, but there are always a few to ruin things for others. I've seen first hand people pissing and taking a dump next to the start of routes/problems.

Agreed, that the landowners could do more - employe two people full time to clean up continuously?

FYI: Part of the Boschkloof access arrangements in Montagu for the re-opening are:
- Toilet etiquette: For No. 2 movements, Do it in a bag and put any used toilet paper in the bag as well. Take bag home with you (no burying anything).
- MCSA members only An MCSA member would be allowed to take in two non members with them, the member takes responsibility for two persons.

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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:25 am 
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Real Name: Mike J
Typical "ethical" debate: my way is best and your way sucks...


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:30 am 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Nick T calling me a hypocrite is lame. I guess you are the kind that also plays the race card...

I love all forms of climbing. I don't hate any of it. Probably clipped more bolts than you. Placed many too.

CityROCK does not promote anything in particular. All three owners trad climb and sport climb. It is a business that provides for all forms of training and leisure and learning. Kids parties too.....

We employ around 25 people!!!!!!

It also hopefully helps to promote consideration for the environment. We regularly sponsor trail building, re-bolting and even part funded the "Leopard" camera at Yellowwood.

I do my best to take care of the places where I climb. That's all. And when only one person rocks up to clean up a place. Man that sucks. Never mind the fact that a mess has been left by others in the first place.

Some areas are already and others will just be ruined if access is made easier by bolting and bouldering.

Never heard of an access problem to a trad area. They attract less people or less low life or both. That's just the reality.

De Pakhuys is privately owned and a business no different really to CR, except it is in a spectacular area of nature that must be preserved.

If this view is being hypocritical I am happy to be so and will wear the title with honour...


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:43 am 
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Real Name: Nic Le Maitre
SNORT wrote:
Never heard of an access problem to a trad area. They attract less people or less low life or both. That's just the reality.


Um... Lost World?

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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:47 am 
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Real Name: Justin Lawson
Yes, It's on my agenda.
Due to it's proximity to the road it is quite similar to a sport crag.

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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:05 am 
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Real Name: Arnold de Beer
There is a certain political party down in the cape that might come and harvest the crap for free and redistribute it in the city center, maybe conclude a joint venture with them :jocolor:

I think its hard to spot a "low life", but how about some naming and shaming, similar to the drunk drivers register?

Ps. Whats the full story on the new bolted line in yellow wood?


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:08 am 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Anybody can go to Lost World. It is just not free. Like at De Pakhuys you have to pay to go there. It is a lot more expensive that's all. Been there twice in the recent past


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:31 am 
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Real Name: Justin Lawson
RE: Lostworld - What Snort says is correct. I would however like to see Lost World with a lower entry fee.

Related forum thread: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing (with Yellowwood being one of the main points of discussion).

McJagger - I like your plan :P
New Born is an old route. It was bolted in the late 90's (I think) by Sean Maasch.
It must be noted that Snort too has placed bolts at Yellowwood :wink:

In the end, bolts aren't the problem. People are.

Image


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File comment: Hazel Findlay and Alex Honnold on 'New Born' Yellowwood's hardest route, 7c+. I was one foot pop away from an onsight, but we both ticked even with a broken heel and a pulled finger. Happy days! Photo by Clinton Martinengo.
new_born_yellowwood_05.jpg
new_born_yellowwood_05.jpg [ 129.87 KiB | Viewed 1527 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:05 am 
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Real Name: Arnold de Beer
Thanks for clearing that up, the UKC Article made it sound like a brand new route.

Also how about a changing the leopard cam to a crap cam, then we can finally identify those who jeopardize access?


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:21 am 
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Of course it's not really about bolts but crowd control! The point that Snort makes is that with "easier" access to climbs more crowds come along & with more people come bad types (ok bad is a point of view - inconsiderate & unschooled in conservation).

We see this everywhere were the environment is at risk - the uncaring, uneducated & inconsiderate mess it up for everyone else. So we normally say that this is an education thing but in reality we see the only real way to deal with this is TO MAKE THEM PAY.

Unfortunately that means everyone. So whoever is already whinging about access fees needs to go & see that the access fees go towards patrolling & cleaning up. Naturally we should have a sliding scale - foreigners should pay more to enjoy SA's natural beauty (and they won't even feel it).

How else do you practically propose dealing with this. Limit the numbers - I am sure SNORT would agree to this. Or make it more difficult to get to the boulders (yes I am serious!). A few years ago they proposed that all cars be banned from the valley (Yosemite) & that only electric busses be allowed in the valley to prevent acid rain. Naturally you would be able to hike & cycle. Of course the US of A could not really do this as most of the population can't walk more then ten metres, but it is a good way of separating those who really want to be there from those for whom it is too much effort. So move the parking lots further away!

Clearly the expectation that boulderers can clean up after themselves is misplaced, so someone is going to have to police these areas or they will be shut down. Give those school kids a bells! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:40 am 
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I agree with Snort on this one. There's a systemic thing at Rocklands that involves too much 'take' and not enough 'give'. Tragedy of the commons if you will.

Control access by:
- Cost: Charging an entrance fee
- Quality of experience: The type of experience self-selects the audience. (ie make them walk or trad!)
- Quantity: Quota: Limit the net number of people

There are pros and cons of each, detailed below:
http://hpc.uct.ac.za/NegotiatedAccess-AntHall.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:47 am 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Making them pay sounds good. But that then is barrier to younger poorer and often keen young guys who do respect the place. But that's too bad......

That is the way of the world. Kak en betaal. Or rather As jy wil kak dan moet jy maar betaal!


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:51 am 
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SNORT, I'll keep this civil because contrary to what you may believe, not every boulderer and sport climber is an LCD degenerate with no respect for the environment or others.

I always get irritated when someone tries to take moral high-ground while proclaiming that everyone else is inferior. I really commend Delaney and Nico for actually driving to Rocklands and initiating/helping with the clean up. Why didn't you drive through to help out SNORT? Let me guess, you were out doing something that is more important to YOU, be it climbing somewhere else, spending time with the family or whatever else it is that you would rather have been doing. I didn't go because that's what I was doing. I had a permit for Milner that was arranged months before, I wasn't prepared to give that up to go and clean up Rocklands so I told myself I'd go to the next clean up. I'm not trying to justify why I didn't drive to Rocklands, I'm trying to illustrate the point that self interest is a human condition. We're all guilty to varying degrees. Even you.

You choose to look down on the LCD that boulders or sport climbs but the real issue is that regardless of the pursuit, the more people that take part, the more impact it will have. This is simply because there are always going to be people who care and people who don't, the more total people there are, the more people who don't care there will be. I've climbed trad on both TM and Lions head and for the amount of climbers that climb there, the amount of shit and TP that I've seen, is easily comparable to any sport climbing or bouldering areas. So let's keep in mind that the problems we have are the result of individuals and not a demographic (boulderers, sport climbers or trad climbers).

NickT may have been emotionally charged whilst calling you out as a hypocrite, but I must admit that it was one of the ideas that did cross my mind. I then had a chance to calm down and think rationally. Being an owner of probably the largest gym in SA, you have a great opportunity to create awareness of environmental impact among those that, as you would put it, become either LCD or trad climbers. Yet I haven't seen any special attention given to such details, perhaps it is not profitable but surely it is a good place to start creating awareness? At least then we can say that it definitely isn't the locals causing the shit!

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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:23 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Mullet you are not being civil but rather personal and insulting and making unsubstantiated statements

I almost never leave a place without taking out more shit than what I carry in. I do leave my banana peals and tea bags to fertilize the local flora and yes I do shit it in the bush. But see if you can find it!. Wherever I go I pick up shit, whether it is on the pavement at my kids school or patagonia or Spitzkoppe and indeed De Pakhuys

My attack is on the land owners and the abusers.

I have the greatest respect for anyone that looks after a place but at De Pakhuys that is the exception, not the rule.

The trad climbing community does a damn good job in self regulating itself. The bouldering and sport climbing community simply does not. My post is not meant to take any moral high ground or take any individual or activity to task. It is to provoke the users or rather the abusers to clean up their act.

You say I don't do anything to create awareness. Well this exactly why I made this post. You may not like my style but it is meant to provoke and stimulate and get people to act accordingly.

I was at Thomas hut a few days ago. There was a fire round it that burnt the water feeding system. Somebody was irresponsible!

I have offered to go up there and carry up new pipe (at least 30m is needed) and fix it and pay for it. And then clean up the mess from the fire. And carry down all the shit on my back. Don't make out that I do not do my bit. How the hell would you know!

Shoot the messenger if you must. But don't criticize me personally when you have no idea what I do or do not do.


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:11 pm 
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The issue at hand is that individuals are responsible for damaging an environment that some of us (both you and I included) value and are jeopardising our opportunity to enjoy this privilege. Fingers can be pointed at entire user groups or something can be done to manage the impact or actions of these individuals. I disagree with Mr Honnold that you are stifling progress by not bolting places like Blouberg and Yellowwood but progress isn't responsible for Rocklands being in the state that it is either.

SNORT wrote:
Mullet you are not being civil but rather personal and insulting and making unsubstantiated statements

If you read what I wrote in context you will realise that there is no personal insult apart from my disagreement with your opinion that the LCD is unquestionably linked to bouldering and sport climbing. If you interpreted it as a personal attack, I apologise.

SNORT wrote:
I have the greatest respect for anyone that looks after a place but at De Pakhuys that is the exception, not the rule.

If word got out that Yellowwood is one of the best trad climbing destination in the world and thousands of people flock to South Africa to experience it, you will notice that even trad climbers can have no respect for the environment. It is a byproduct of increased traffic.

SNORT wrote:
The trad climbing community does a damn good job in self regulating itself. The bouldering and sport climbing community simply does not.

This statement reeks of taking moral high ground and serves only to divide our small climbing community and not promote action. In South Africa, many of the trad climbing community also make up part of the sport climbing or bouldering community. Does that mean that they immune to the same level of criticism purely because they climb trad? Your argument will often pit trad against the LCD when in truth trad will have it's own LCD, there are just fewer people in the trad community making it less obvious.

SNORT wrote:
My post is not meant to take any moral high ground or take any individual or activity to task. It is to provoke the users or rather the abusers to clean up their act.

Abusers will abuse until they are personally taken to task. A generalised attack directed at a part of our climbing community won't achieve this.

SNORT wrote:
You say I don't do anything to create awareness.

No, I said that their aren't programmes at the gym that promote awareness. As part of an introduction to climbing or something to that effect.

SNORT wrote:
You may not like my style but it is meant to provoke and stimulate and get people to act accordingly

Ditto.

SNORT wrote:
Don't make out that I do not do my bit. How the hell would you know!

Where did I make out that you don't contribute? I was specifically referencing driving to the Cederburg for the Rocklands clean up. I used both your absence and and my own to illustrate that people won't take every opportunity that they get to go out of their way for the greater good.

We aren't all always going to be available whenever there is something that needs to be done, and yes, there are going to be some who do a lot more than others and also those that do nothing, but it is our responsibility as a CLIMBING community, not a sport, trad or boudering community, to take care of what we value.

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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:24 pm 
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Real Name: Niel Mostert
This caught my attention:

[quote="SNORT"]The trad climbing community does a damn good job in self regulating itself. The bouldering and sport climbing community simply does not[/quote]

Could a case be made for the group economics as a consequence of the age demographic of the average participants in each discipline, i.e. boulder, sport or trad?

In simpler terms: the vast majority of boulderers and sport climbers are below 30 years of age, many of them students, living with parents etc etc. , generally not earning much (or anything) and necessarily opportunistic of whatever comes their way in terms of travel opportunities, food and so on.

However, the average trad climber (in SA at least) (and lets call him "ATC" for short) is over 30 years of age and has generally settled in a career with attached salary.

Amongst other things this gives the ATC a significant advantage over the boulderer/sport climber in terms of healthier food which they are able to afford, and especially fibre rich foods such as All Bran Flakes, which gives the ATC a great advantage in [i]self-regulating[/i] as per quote above, than the boulderer or sport climber who is only living off bananas and peanut butter on their 3 week climbing trip during the varsity holidays.

The ATC can thus make their regular poopoo while they read news24 on their smartphone early in the morning at home or at camp as they always do, knowing that that would be the last time they would need to worry about it for the day. The poor boulderer or sport climber on the other hand can not regulate themselves so well while surviving on Black Cat and never know when the urge will strike during the day.

I really feel like I really might be on to something here and if there is adequate consensus, I vote we collect enough money to send a substantial shipment of All Bran Flakes, muesli and dried fruit to Rocklands next season and distribute them to the boulderers for free. It might also be worthwhile to distribute same on Saturdays to the sport climbers at The Mine and Lower Silvermine.

Can I have an "aye" ?


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:06 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
I think what might work quite well is everybody takes a whole lot of laxatives two days before they go to Rocklands. Then they eat say 20 panado tablets that should constipate them for the period they are there. Cough mixture with codeine also works.

Jokes aside. I avoid foods that result in the runs when climbing big walls. (Such as dried fruit!) Anything with codeine works. Makes things less painful and a little less shitty.
Let's all constipate.... when we go climbing.


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:57 pm 
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Or you could just rant on about the same faeces over and over. That seems to annoy the shit out of most people :jocolor:

Funny how people keep calling SNORT a hypocrite. Maybe he took the wrong oath back in the day? :lol:

Come on SNORT, we all know you're just feeling crappy because Alex Hannold said Blouberg was kak.

Oh no, looks like I'll be in the excrement soon too... just too much poo all round. Cheers!


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:07 pm 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
The fact that Alex thinks Blouberg is Kak is probably the best thing any superstar American climber could ever say about the place. It will keep the crowds and the shit away.

I think he enjoyed climbing Dog of Thunder though.

He did not like the placement of the first bolt on the route. He said it is too reachy. Coming from him who has about a metre better reach than me was quite funny. But yes it is a badly placed bolt. I did not put it there. My very tall buddy did.


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:10 pm 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
OK OK enough from me! Had enough fun causing "shit" again.

Thanks for all the comments. I hope I entertained you all.

Have a good weekend.

Let's just keep our crags clean please.

Love you all.


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:14 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
.


Last edited by Marshall1 on Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:15 pm 
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No man, the only thing keeping the shit off Blouberg is SNORT...

http://www.climbing.com/route/thunderdo ... f-thunder/

SNORT wrote:
The bivvy is very comfy and there are 3 mats there. Don’t throw off any rocks as these can be used to shit on and then thrown off.


Shitting, stashing pads on a bivvy and throwing rocks off. Yeah, you really ARE the moral authority on this shitstorm.

Yes we're all morons and don't have a clue who is calling this kettle black. Keep walking Johnny.

SNORT wrote:
Thanks for all the comments. I hope I entertained you all.


Oh boy, you have no idea...


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:44 am 
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Location: Cape Town (mostly :) )
Ignorance has no excuse, but it plays a part.

The Valley (that big one in Cali, with the big walls) is a good example of "Trad" climbers not thinking beyond the moment and the result is an 'enforced' shit-tube as mandatory for any party hauling. Bag it, stash it in the poop-tube and carry it out. I'd be interested to see a stat on numbers visiting (the) Rocklands each season, averaged over the season (what, like 3 months?) to get a daily impact estimate. Now when the traddies walk for a day into BB, Du Toits or the Drakensberg, for example, they sure as shit (pardon the pun) don't carry it out. The next party likely to impact those areas will be months away sometimes.
Rightly, or wrongly, it boils down to:
    - Numbers
    - Convenience
    - Precedent

The lower the numbers visiting an area, the easier it is for 'nature' to deal with the product, particularly if well dealt with. There is, surely, a correlation between increased numbers of users (of anything we humans do), and convenience - the more convenient something is, the more people will use it. As self-appointed-custodians of, say, Rocklands we cannot change the convenience of either the venue, nor the genre (of bouldering)...but, surely, we can implement some steps to make it more convenient to not leave your shit at the "crag". Yes, sadly, this is accommodating a sense of "lack of accountability", but that is already there, IMO.

Indian Creek, Utah, has an incredibly fragile ecosystem, one that also struggles to process human waste in the levels that increased traffic gave rise to. While I was there it was apparent that 2 pretty simple measures were implemented:
    - A number of very well constructed and hygienic toilets were constructed within a "convenient" walking distance of many of the popular areas
    - Poop bags were sold at local campsites / climbing stores (google what makes a poop bag different from a paper bag / plastic bag

Locally, in Pinnacle Gorge, the locals carried a porta-loo into the gorge - this is all of 30min walk from a flushing toilet at the farm house...so is probably a good indication of what is "convenient".

Getting back to Rocklands and, in fact, Tafelberg (IMO) - which incidentally is a Trad only venue, but the traffic is increased by hikers - why is no one thinking up an eco-freindly ablution solution? A clean, smell-free (it's amazing what a whirly utop the 'breath pipe" does for a 'long drop') ablution strategically erected and maintained at "convenient" locations will do three things:
    - Concentrate the waste into one, manageable area(s)
    - Reduce visible litter immediately which, in turn, stifles the "monkey see, monkey do" attitude
    - Will create a job. At the cost of what local labor would cost to maintain a few facilities, it must be a bargain!

Throwing abuse at each other, arguably not even party to the mess, is not going to clear the mess.

It could, even, form the basis of some or other thesis for the clever people in our midst's...???


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:59 am 
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Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Good post.

In theory long drop bogs should not need cleaning or emptying as bacteria should take care of a lot of the "mess" same as with a septic tank. I think it needs some monitoring and correcting measures to keep it "active" though, depending on the environment.

Apparently the underground water is no longer drinkable at North Lees due to so many people pissing along Stanage edge. How minging is that? Best not to reach that point.


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Location: Cape Town (mostly :) )
Basic long drops are the starting point, I can't believe that that is the most advanced point that we are at in 2013. But its not my 'field'


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 Post subject: Re: Stifling progress
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:32 pm 
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Real Name: Deon Wessels
An easy-ish solution http://www.enviro-loo.com/
Raise some money, buy a few, it can be installed anywhere, with basically zero maintenance..
I'm not gonna raise the money but will donate :thumright


On the trad vs boulder issue.
In bloemfontein there is the one terrible crag on Navil Hill. Its a trad only venue. It smells like k@k! Nobody goes there anymore because it smells like k@k! Since bloem only has maybe 3 guys who trad, and 20 climbers in total I can promise it was not any of the them who messed the place up. But the area is open to everyone without any entrance fee.
So my point is: It doesn't matter what type of venue it is, if there is unrestricted access, sooner or later it WILL smell like k@k!


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