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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:58 pm 
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So I mostly climb bolted routes and wanted to know something about traditional projects.

In sport climbing when someone has bolted a line, our ethics leaves us to let them complete the line and get the FA if the person wishes to keep it closed. If a person leaves a project for a year unworked and unattempted I feel it fine to try open the project without their consent.

However traditional climbing does not have bolt placing, etc so theoretically God did all the work. So if someone is working a line (project) on gear, May I try it?

And what happens if they left their gear in?

And then what if I had to try it, despite the answers and opinions given above, would I do with their gear as I believe a route should be done placing gear?

Ebert Nel


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:19 pm 
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It's been a while and I've had a particularly shitty day, so excuse me if you feel like it - I can only wonder whether you had a seizure before using the word "ethics" as part of a question...

As for the answer I'm pretty sure you'll do as you please anyway whether that be piss on everyone's attempt to engage in a meaningful conversation or entertain us with hastily deleted stories of which meal makes for better floating crap, so why bother asking?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:06 am 
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Ebert, is this about a specific route, or just a theoretical question? Context is important. If its about a specific route I suggest you get hold of whoever is working it and have a chat.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:45 am 
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my 2c: trad lines are for the taking. it does not involve the time, effort & cost of bolting & hence it should be open to anybody @ anytime. there might be the issue of cleaning of vegetation, in situ gear etc. - like hector said, speak to the person "on" the route....

ps: coffee emile? :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:52 am 
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If you go jump on anyone's bolted project without their consent, regardless of what amount of time you your holiness consider to have been adequate for them to attempt it, then you are being a turd.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:01 am 
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And just before anyone starts blasting me for sounding particularly bitchy , my previous comment is not aimed at ebert specifically, but anyone with that kind of attitude towards the effort someone else put in. Picking up the phone or sending a mail to the person whose route you want to nab to check if its OK with them goes a long way


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:06 am 
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Hector wrote:
Ebert, is this about a specific route
I think we know what project he is talking about. Personally, I'd like to watch.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:37 am 
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@EVERYBODY, nobody answered my questions, thanks

@Emile I'm sick of fighting, I just wanna climb, please keep you ranting to yourself if you having a bad day, you'll realize how rude you were when you grow up. If you haven't realize i've become way more filtered in what I say online to keep people like you at bay, but I'm sure you'll have a snotty reply to this as I'm most likely half your age and trying to help you improve yourself like I have tried.

@Hektor, yes it's your project that started the thought, but its not about a specific line, its about me rocking up with my rack at a crag and not being unable to do a line because someone else is keeping their gear on it. Thats the key difference between sport and trad. Trad is about being free. Please answer my questions:P and how hard do you think your proj is? 28-30? looks really rad. I'm a bit unfit for it now but will be psyched to try it once I've attempted Climbing in bed with madonna in one pitch.

@mokganjetsi thanks, where are these lines?

@The Jimmy, opinion noted, but think about this. 2 guys look at a line. one guy bolts it faster than another and then leaves it for a year to gather dust and no chalk. I clearly dont have the same ethic as yours when it comes to abandoned lines:P This post is however about trad lines as im new to the league of grumpy people.

@shorti, I like this biggest overhanging thing I can climb on, slab is difficult for me, like really difficult, overhanging is easy, really easy. My problem is that south africa is very limited when it comes to holds in a roof, so when i see it im drawn to it like :P


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:48 am 
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Glad you are at least asking questions instead of just jumping on the line, thanks.

One thing to consider is that a trad line is not always "as God made it". As with any quality sport line, a lot of effort is often required, even on trad before the line can be attempted. For the particular line in Cedarberg Kloof, it took me several hours of dangling on a rope to even link the features together. Followed by several trip by both Hector and myself to clear loose rock. Followed by more trips to find solid gear amongst choss and expanding flakes.

I am sure that guys like Jimbo and Squeeks will also agree that to open a new line on trad needs a lot of exploratory work. So, to all and sundry out there, please respect that and try to avoid a line is is clearly being worked, in the same way that you would avoid a sport line being worked.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:20 am 
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Personally I think all unopened trad lines are free game in principal, however:

Popular areas:
People have been climbing in RSA for over 100 years, if it isn't open there is probably good reason like its hard, crap or dodgy rock. If someone has been slaving over the line to reduce loose rock, plants and lichen, leaving gear etc then an IP might be fair, but to IP just because you are suffering to do sent the 18 is not reasonable.

Remote/unpopular areas:
Surely the shear remoteness of an area means people will look less longingly at the line, and would be more willing to go elsewhere? Typically the people going to those places don't get there often and will have plenty else to do, not threatening your project and therefore IP is unnecessary.

The vast majority of RSA climbing is remote.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:23 am 
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So if we can call dibs on trad routes, then we can we call dibs on boulders too, right? Like first person to find and clean a boulder gets the rest of their lifetime to try it?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:24 am 
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mmmm, yeah, i like to work the "logic" behind the "rules / conventions".

sport line: the issue remains what right you have to the line, for how long, given that you drilled & placed bolts. fact is the route was always there and you most certainly do not "own" it; you only "own" the bolts. so, in extreme i can go place my own bolts and clip them only..... :? surely at some point you lose your "right" to the route; when is debatable but if its been standing for even 6-months it definitely does not seem that you are still serious about it.

trad: I hear your logic & agree andrew - some routes require a lot of preparation & i think it should be respected. communicate.

ebert: i did not allude to any specific line; but rather in general. often see in-situ gear on hard projects (like gear on the jeopardy wall). pitons on old aid-routes. etc.

this discussion is progress :thumleft:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:43 am 
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Buy a drill - R5000+
Buy a bunch of drill bits at R40 each
Buy bolts at R40 each (no cheapies, 316 SS only)
Buy hangers at whatever they cost now - R30 last time I checked
Buy chains and quicklinks for the anchors
Buy longer bolts for the anchors (100mm ones here, R50?)
Buy a decent hammer
Buy a saw + bush cutter
Buy a 17mm spanner and toque wrench if you're OCD
Get a blowpipe
Find a crag
Negotiate access
Chop a path to the said crag
Find a line that looks fun
Find/build a top rope anchor
Toprope the line, see if it goes and is fun
Clean loose rock - sometimes, this only takes a few hours of hanging in a harness
Bring heavy pack full of bolting stuff
Toprope the line again (lots) and find the best bolt placements
Drill holes
Clean holes
Place chains
Place bolts
Brush dust off holds
FINALLY try send the line
Carry a bag full of trad gear to set up anchors, add all the bolting kit and your over 20kg without food and water
Spend your precious days bolting instead of climbing
Get dust everywhere
Have a newby drop your battery from the top of the route...

Yeah it's not really a mission, especially if you've never actually done it. Then it's all jokes.

6 months go past quick if you travel overseas for work, have a kid, buy a house, change jobs, get divorced, get married, have someone die, have a huge project deadline, etc etc

If you're actively equipping routes I wouldn't feel that bummed if you snake a line I've left for 6 months. But if you're just a consumer, like most climbers are, stealing a line from a bolter is like taking land from a farmer. Don't act too surprised if you're starving because no one wants to share their farms with you.


Last edited by pierre.joubert on Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:44 am 
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In my opinion:

If someone has made the effort to find, clean and possibly bolt a line, and is actively working that project I believe it would be polite to respect their efforts and hang ten for the route to be opened.

If someone is not actively working their project, after some time it would be acceptable to give them a call and politely let them know you would like to attempt their project.

One nice solution for sport routes is for the route equipper to get credit if he can't haul his ass up the route. So instead of "FA" in the guidebook just say "Equipped by"

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:29 pm 
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pierre, awesome description there.... although I would think bolting a new hard line at bronkies would require about a 6th of said efforts.

i think we're all sort-off in agreement. stealing someone else's line does feel to me just as selfish as bolting a line and keeping it closed for a year+ (i concede that 6-months is a short time).


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:44 pm 
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pierre.joubert wrote:
If you're actively equipping routes I wouldn't feel that bummed if you snake a line I've left for 6 months. But if you're just a consumer, like most climbers are, stealing a line from a bolter is like taking land from a farmer. Don't act too surprised if you're starving because no one wants to share their farms with you.


I like this. If you are genuinely that desperate to do a route someone else has taken the time to clean and bolt, after 6 months off them an amount of cash commensurate to the amount of money and effort they put in. If the price is agreed it's your for the taking. If not leave it the fuck alone and let them finish it, rather than waiting in the wings like route vampire ready to grab the glory without putting in the effort.

The theft / piracy meme is irrelevant to the topic btw.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:50 pm 
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Why not just disappear? The rock does not keep track of the FA I assure you(all). The only entity that keeps track of the 'mystical' FA is people! The first time I do something is a FA, regardless IF who went before me or after me.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:17 pm 
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mokganjetsi wrote:
pierre, awesome description there.... although I would think bolting a new hard line at bronkies would require about a 6th of said efforts.

i think we're all sort-off in agreement. stealing someone else's line does feel to me just as selfish as bolting a line and keeping it closed for a year+ (i concede that 6-months is a short time).


Ok, for a new hard line at Bronkies you can leave out:

Find a crag
Negotiate access
Chop a path to the said crag

and you only have to do these once:

Buy a drill - R5000+
Buy a decent hammer
Buy a saw + bush cutter
Buy a 17mm spanner and toque wrench if you're OCD
Get a blowpipe

so not quite 16.7% of the work. Again... easy peasy if you've not actually done it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:37 pm 
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Real Name: Willem Boshoff
Borrow a drill - free
Buy bits & bolts and stuff - R1200
Borrow wood-cutting tools or buy - R300?
Having the fun of scopeing, do the bolting & working out the moves - priceless
Realise this is: a new uber classic / 4 or 5-star line / meh.
Every time you arrive at the crag you are: licking dry lips and dreaming of eternal glory in the climbing hall of fame / amped about a quality route / meh.
Can't send the route at first: psyyyyyyche to climb harder / gotta do more frenchies / meh.
In the mean time you: spend more time thinking about a name than what you did for your firstborn / dream up a really cool name / meh.
Try try try & try again / try a lot / meh.
Still can't send after 6-months: :rambo: / :rambo: / :arrow:
Still cant't send after a year: :rambo: / :arrow:
And finally in some unknown future time: :arrow:

At which time a 17-year old prodigy from europe flashes your route and name it after his grandmother's cat :pukel: :puker:

(Had some fun. High fives for all the constructive views. Over & out.)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:10 pm 
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Real Name: Andrew Blanche
if you are asking this question... I have to wonder if anything we say here will make a difference?

Simple example.. you slave away in the SPAM and cook up a super meal, you lay the table and serve up the grub (think bolted route).. as you turn your back i sit down and eat it all.. not leaving you a crumb.. how would you feel?

Now.. you have a fruit tree.. with a nice big juicy apple.. true you did not have to cook the apple, but you saw it and you have been waiting for it to get ripe (think trad route) .. and just as its ready.. i pick it and eat it.. how would you feel?

Really? do we have to think about this answer?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:24 pm 
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mokganjetsi wrote:


At which time a 17-year old prodigy from europe flashes your route and name it after his grandmother's cat :pukel: :puker:


Alex Megos is 20 now :lol:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68474


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:06 pm 
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Chris F wrote:
I like this. If you are genuinely that desperate to do a route someone else has taken the time to clean and bolt, after 6 months off them an amount of cash commensurate to the amount of money and effort they put in. If the price is agreed it's your for the taking. If not leave it the fuck alone and let them finish it, rather than waiting in the wings like route vampire ready to grab the glory without putting in the effort.


I like this as well. Reminds me of this classic Dave Graham story about Livin Astro (5.14c/8c+):

Quote:
Dave Graham paid me $100 for the route after hounding me to get on it practically before the glue for the bolts was dry and I had finished cleaning it. So I asked him if he would mind paying for the bolts so I could go bolt another project for myself. He could have saved himself the $100 bucks if he had waited a week or two for me to realize it was going to be way too hard for me, but that was his donation to Rumney, as I think I used the money to retro other routes.


http://www.mountainproject.com/v/livin-astro/107190264


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:37 pm 
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In the cape we are pretty respectful of other peoples trad projects (First ascents, anyway). If they are actively working them we leave them alone. If they have been left untouched/abandoned for some time then its respectful to ask the 'owner' if you can open it. A lot depends on the specific situation. if they have abandoned their project and they still say no, well ……..your call.

As Andrew said a massive amount of effort can go into opening a trad line: spotting a line, cleaning, brushing, removing loose stuff, figuring out where the line goes, gear and beta etc. Sometimes it can feel as much effort as a sport climb and can take 2-3 days of effort before you even tie into the sharp end.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:24 pm 
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I think it depends on lots of factors. If its a new crag then I would say surely the person who arranged access has the right to earmark any lines that tickle their fancy. By contrast - an old crag with easy access (like Monteseel) surely, if there are any decent unopened lines left, surely one cannot bookmark a line.

Also - from a practical point of view: it is easy to mark a sport line with the missing first QD or a knot tied on the first bold etc. For a trad route how do you go about marking a route for FA? If someone tells you about their trad project it would be good manners to ask if they mind you having a shot before they have opened it.

Now how about a sport line before it has been bolted - what is the protocol there? Surely the same would apply?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:41 pm 
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What Jimbo, Andrew and Mok said.

When you repeat a line you are 'standing on the shoulders of those who have gone before'
- whether it's their bolts, or their vision to spend many hours trying what may be a fruitless exercise.
Even just knowing that it's grade 28, and goes, and is a cool line, is much more beta and incentive than the FA has to trailblaze...

In theory yes if you know nothing of someone's efforts and find the same line in the same year (lets ignore chalk) then it's fair game. But by clipping their bolts, or seeing where they've succeeded or failed, where they've found gear placements, or just seeing that they have found a viable route, or got psyced watching them... you're standing on their shoulders when you climb it.

So, the ethic is not to stand on someone's head and snatch the ascent when they've done the investing.
If you think they've 'given up' then almost always a polite conversation is quick and cheerful.

I once read in CLIMBING! magazine in the 90s that the ethic on sport routes at established crags was one year unless the projector made an effort to advertise their ongoing effort.

The ethic in SA has been less aggressive - basically to just ask!

Ant


P.S Ask around about the route name 'Bust Up' - and old trad classic on Table Mountain...


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:45 am 
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jimbo wrote:
In the cape we are pretty respectful of other peoples trad projects (First ascents, anyway). If they are actively working them we leave them alone. If they have been left untouched/abandoned for some time then its respectful to ask the 'owner' if you can open it. A lot depends on the specific situation. if they have abandoned their project and they still say no, well ……..your call.

As Andrew said a massive amount of effort can go into opening a trad line: spotting a line, cleaning, brushing, removing loose stuff, figuring out where the line goes, gear and beta etc. Sometimes it can feel as much effort as a sport climb and can take 2-3 days of effort before you even tie into the sharp end.


^^This is from a new router, which means it's not just bullshit on the internet.

ant wrote:
What Jimbo, Andrew and Mok said.

When you repeat a line you are 'standing on the shoulders of those who have gone before'
- whether it's their bolts, or their vision to spend many hours trying what may be a fruitless exercise.
Even just knowing that it's grade 28, and goes, and is a cool line, is much more beta and incentive than the FA has to trailblaze...

In theory yes if you know nothing of someone's efforts and find the same line in the same year (lets ignore chalk) then it's fair game. But by clipping their bolts, or seeing where they've succeeded or failed, where they've found gear placements, or just seeing that they have found a viable route, or got psyced watching them... you're standing on their shoulders when you climb it.

So, the ethic is not to stand on someone's head and snatch the ascent when they've done the investing.
If you think they've 'given up' then almost always a polite conversation is quick and cheerful.

I once read in CLIMBING! magazine in the 90s that the ethic on sport routes at established crags was one year unless the projector made an effort to advertise their ongoing effort.

The ethic in SA has been less aggressive - basically to just ask!

Ant


P.S Ask around about the route name 'Bust Up' - and old trad classic on Table Mountain...


This too.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:38 pm 
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I really appreciate the response, this is what I wanted to find out and the sport climbing beta just an extra to think about. I sent Stuart Brown's "dynamo Hum" project in Montagu at WaterWorld as i knew it was standing around for years. I still feel that the route was fine being done without asking as it was a dead project at a famous crag. I never thought about it even, will in future.

I got one more question.

When sending a traditional route, I believe gear should be placed, whats the general opinion on this?
I believe gear should be placed on a send otherwise you doing a sport route. It could also then be argued that placing draws on a sport line is the same equivalent but it just doesn't seem the same.

Same question but what about first ascents on trad placing or preplaced?

Ebert Nel
Keep it clean, dont be mean, smoke some .... :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:50 pm 
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of topic, mostly:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum ... rst-ascent


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:32 pm 
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Forket wrote:
When sending a traditional route, I believe gear should be placed, whats the general opinion on this?
I believe gear should be placed on a send otherwise you doing a sport route. It could also then be argued that placing draws on a sport line is the same equivalent but it just doesn't seem the same.

Same question but what about first ascents on trad placing or preplaced?


People have laughed at me in the past for saying that - but I completely agree. Placing gear makes lead climbing harder, it takes focus and can be awkward to actually get a nut in without falling. If placing gear on lead is "too dangerous" as I have been told, one should not be climbing lead trad to start with.

But hey - I also don't like people marking holds with chalk or placing draws on sport routes in advance, so what do I know...

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:05 pm 
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As long as you are clear about the style of your ascent. Pre-placing and "rehearsing" is a tried and trusted style, affectionately known as, "head-pointing". Ultimately up to you, just don't claim you climbed placing, onsight, when you rapped in and placed a piece or seven.

If it makes you feel better, after a headpoint, climb it again placing kit...if you can


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