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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:48 pm
Posts: 265
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Guy Holwill
Re using real names - it is just that people will take you more seriously when they know who you are.

Atheists most certainly care about people and unnecessary suffering. We know that we need to take responsibilty for ourselves, because there is no \"big fella\" in the sky who will pretect us.

Ok, here's the soppy bit. This atheist cares about many things - one of which is the sport that I love and the people who make up the climbing community. Why not do something to try to avoid unnecessary suffering in that community. The reality is that climbers die in a variety of ways. But I don't know anyone whose death was unavoidable (Phil Lloyd, Paul Every, Duncan Elliott, Andrew Ward to name some of the people with whom I've climbed). I'm sure that the parents of those guys wish that someone had said something that made them do things differently.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:27 pm 
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Posts: 236
Hi Guy,

Points taken. I still don't agree with memorials all over the place. We all know of the risks involved with climbing, and, even with all the reminders in the world, people still end up doing dumb things and hurting themselves. Look at Marriane's accident. There it was, a wake up call for all climbers, wear a helmet. It can save you. Do I see people climbing with helmets at the crags?
No...I didnt even check my belay loop after Todd Skinner died, and, if that wasnt a huge reminder to all that our equipment is not infallable, then I don't know what was.

So, when you go and buy an ATC, this object reminds you to be safe just through it's function, otherwise we'd be abseiling alpine style. However, even this device comes with a very clear, printed disclaimer, because the companies know that when there are humans involved, there is the chance for 'accidents' to happen.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:48 pm
Posts: 265
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Guy Holwill
My point exactly, which is why I think that it might be more effective to walk past a small and tasteful plaque and think \"some guy actually died here, maybe I'll check my knot before lowering off the route today\".

After all, no belay device comes with the warning that says \"one of your friends died because he didn't know how to use this thing properly\".

I'm not advocating putting up millions of plaques - I just think that we all could do with a reminder once in a while. And the more personal the reminder, the more likely we are to get the message.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:29 pm
Posts: 93
Location: pretoria
has the name of the climber been released yet


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:47 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:23 am
Posts: 7
Guest,

Your grasp of the reality of life and death is impressive but I think you're missing the point a bit. Nobody is talking about building a 7 foot high cairn. The place where this guy died is the same place where people hike. He wasn't trying to solo a 25 without ropes, he was pottering around on the kind of rocks that some people would let their kids play on (perhaps while they're a few meters away doing a 'dangerous' climb). I have actually climbed over nearby rocks (wearing running shoes) as a shortcut to the path. He wasn't wearing a harness because he didn't need one and neither would I if I was just trying a few bouldering moves there. However, if I saw some indication that someone had died doing something I was about to try, then I would probably keep on walking and stick to the more popular bouldering area's. If it was a climber that fell and died because their harness or a cam broke then fair enough, you shouldn't make others lament it. Deep down we all expect it to happen eventually, but nobody expects to see their best friend die on a quiet Sunday afternoon doing something as innocuous as climbing boulders. If this could help save just one person in the next 10 years, be they a lost hiker or a foreigner that never heard about this death before, then whats the big deal?

You seem to have claimed this as some kind of climbing accident (forgivable, due to the false newspaper reports) but its more than that. You've probably seen the 'Bird nesting complete' sign at the top of the ridge. Its very nice but when we were trying to save this poor guys life there wasn't so much as an emergency number printed on the entrance receipt. In a country with no effective ( i.e. coordinated and fast) emergency services, accidents like this should be avoided at all costs. Imagine if the park manager at the front gate had a direct radio link to the mountain rescue services?

Simon


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:28 pm
Posts: 236
Hi Simon, I'm really sorry about what happened to your mate. I was not trying to trivialize the graveness of this, and I'm certainly not trying to call it a climbing accident. I know that most of the mountain deaths in the Cape are in fact from just such incidences.

What I am saying though is that such sombre reminders are not what will save lives. Perhaps you have the best idea. What the parks need to do is print on their entrance receipt a list of the possible dangers with warnings, as well as include detailed rescue numbers and emergency services. A signboard at the entrance to the Silvermine parking warning of rockfalls, dangerous boulders, snakes etc should also be visible.

Some tiny little plaque on a boulder in the middle of nowhere is really just not going to help, especially if you say you were just walking around and exploring. In this case, it would be better for people to be aware of the issues from the get go, insead of upsetting people along the way with tiny reminders of death and lost souls.

Get pro-active and create some proper change through this terrible event. Surely in the honor of your friend, this would be far more effective and would actually save lives.

My condolences.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Grant Marinus
I've read the views on this subject since I expressed my own (about 8 back) and can't help but feel that the debate about the pro's and cons of placing a plaque misses the point; its really a non-issue.

A fellow climber passed away tragically - fact. His friends and family mourn now and will remember him - fact. We can all relate to the incident since we all climb (in one way or another) and know that what we do is not without risk - fact

Placing a plaque \"to circumvent future similar tragedy\" is about as conclusive an exercise as the death penalty is for deterring would be rapist, murder's ... fact. Fact is you will never know whether its presence did or did not deter a fatal accident or not ... how can you!

Taking the matter further, and since the plaque is to spell out a warning ... what exactly would this plaque read ...

Option 1

[name] date of birth to date of passing & appropriate eulogy

where is the warning or caution in that ... or does a person read into the site of the plaque something … unless a person knows the story of the incident that plaque could mean anything … he spent time here, he liked this side of the mountain … etc.

or

Option 2

[name] date of birth & appropriate eulogy PLUS - Warning climbing is a dangerous activity wear a helmet - or don't climb here or you climb here at your own peril or whatever else …

In my view option 2 (or any derivative of it) which clearly spells out a warning also implies something else ... like [name] passed away because s/he did not heed the advice ... nice memory for the family and friends that one ... COME ON ...

Back to the real issue people ...

1. Warnings and Cautions – entrance to Silvermine or at Car park or other suitable site where ALL can see, be reminded and take note – we don’t heed them at the best of times that’s why they must STAND OUT.

2, Tragedy situation … lets show some respect for this guy, his family and friends in the situation.


Simon, I can't know what it feels like to have lost a friend in such a tragic way - I hope I never have to go to that \"place\" either. We don't know one another but my hope is that your memories of your friend remain cherished and positive ones; please then also accept my condolences.

GBM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:23 am
Posts: 7
Hi,

There seems to be a misunderstanding. I never knew him. We were cliimbing at the crag and went to help when his friend called for help. I think my last post gave the impression he was my friend, but he was not. Sorry for the mistake :(

Simon


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 565
Hey GBM, I guess you and I work somewhat differently.
You know how many sign's I've seen at the entrance to a park, reserve or whatever and pay no attention to them! Read one read em all, right.
Maybe it's just me but a dedication plaque right there near the crag is different, and in fact might just deter me from doing anything 'different' on the day, and maybe check my figure of eight and pay a bit of attention to my belaying for once.
I'm also not quite sure why there are such vehement objections to the plaque, without any good reasons.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:17 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:28 pm
Posts: 236
Quote:
I'm also not quite sure why there are such vehement objections to the plaque, without any good reasons.


Stu, there are plenty of good reasons if you just care to read the thread. Just because YOU do something in a certain way does not mean everyone will be the same. A lot of people DO read the signs...and perhaps this has not crossed your mind yet, but this place where this person died is not the only potentially dangerous place in the park. What you gonna do, what until someone dies at each spot so a plaque can be left there? Get real dude. The idea of a proper warning sign system with concise emergency details is the way to go.

Like I said above somewhere, put up a plaque by all means, but from now on, I'll be going climbing with a chisel in my pack. ANY plaques found will be removed and posted to the relevant party in a padded envelope. To me, it's the same as bolting in a trad area. People dont want to go out hiking and have to look at memorials everywhere. Just get over it, you live you die. End of story.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 565
It is not about whether you are right or I am wrong. It seems that the 'forum rage' phenomen has taken over this thread as well which is sad.
I think that if the majority of people disagree with the idea of a plaque then everyone else will respect that and agree not to put one up, or if a consensus is reached to errect one than so be it, as you or I individually are don't own anything.
Guest that's pretty disgusting man, surely this is one thread which you should have kept your antagonistic jibes to yourself.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:04 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:28 pm
Posts: 236
'Forum rage'???? No, anyone who doesnt agree with you Stu, is fighting you. That's how you see it anyway. Like I said, put up all the plaques you like, but I'll be out and about with a chisel in my pack in the future. Graveyards are for memorials, the hills are for our souls.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:14 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 90
I think we are going a bit to far about warnings ....... It's the fam and friends which maybe want a plaque for remembrance or not at all. It's for them to decide how to deal with this grief. I have seen a couple of plaque's and untill and the don't disturb me at all. I have a look at it (when I see it) and continue what I was doing. There not like bill boards that you can't miss it. Some people like to put a plaque and most people won't. Just live and let live.

Condolenses to the family and friends

Willem


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:15 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:48 am
Posts: 106
Location: PTA
Just my Two cents...

Anyone bother to find out how the family feels about all of this?? i mean you are putting up a plaque and you dont even know the guys name yet...

I'm with Guest and others on this, if the family wanted a plaque put up so be it but who are we to presume to know what they want?

And a little more respect too hey, someone died here and quite possibly the family will read this thread....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:28 pm
Posts: 236
Maybe we should have a plaque?

Image

Quote:
And a little more respect too hey, someone died here


Maybe we should have more respect for the living too then? I dont see a plaque for every homeless child living on the streets.


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 Post subject: Guest
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:54 am
Posts: 522
Guest I feel that you are troubled by the personal message you once send me and the things you have said on this forum. Don't be angry inside, don't resend people, it doesn't help anything. Find peace in your life.

I hope you take the advice.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:28 pm
Posts: 236
Thanks Drifter, I think we all know where you can put your advice. Thanks for being the ignorant, patronizing fool that you are. The only person I 'resent' is you. I resent you because I wanted to be the dumbest idiot on the forum and now you've stolen my limelight. I hope you go away soon.

BTW - Chisels are only R11,99 at Makro, so I got two. One for my bouldering bag, the other for my crag pack. Can't wait to use 'em!

:twisted:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:59 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:05 pm
Posts: 17
Hey ppl. This forum has gone a little off the point, however as a note on the side, if I am in a fatal accident, donate my organs and save the money from a plaque and rather donate it to an organization that rehabilitates paths and the environment we climb in so others can enjoy the pristine environment I was so lucky to have been able to experience. Peace.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:21 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:34 pm
Posts: 372
Location: Under my bed
Condolences to the dude's family.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:54 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 1167
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
on route to everest basecamp there's literally hundreds of cairns with plaques for deceased climbers (that died on the mountains in the area). i thought it was great. it really created a sense of how dangerous and extreme the place is; it celebrated the courage and cost of mountaineering and acknowledeged those that died doing what we all love.

guest, if you arrive there with your little chisel somebody's going to chisel your face of (i f they can distinguish it from your butt)
:D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:32 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:28 pm
Posts: 236
yeah, there's a big similarity between boulder hopping at Silvermine, and being in the 'death zone' and freezing to death at 8000m. People go to Everest very aware of the risks, and with the clear knowledge that death awaits you around every corner. They don't go to Silvermine expecting anything worse than sunburn. You cant compare the two.

Quote:
guest, if you arrive there with your little chisel somebody's going to chisel your face of (i f they can distinguish it from your butt)


It would be easy to find my face. They would just have to look for your face which would be glued to my butt! :oops:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:06 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:29 am
Posts: 179
I see the maturity level of this forum hasn't improved much since I've been away...

Very sorry to hear about the tragic events of the last weekend at Silvermine.
Condolences to the family and friends!!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:53 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
if i can say something mature then: each man for himself as to whether or not there should be plaques, cairns, trees planted or whatever other forms of rememberance for deceased climbers. i do not think any of us can judge others in the way they choose to pay respect for those that died.

since one should not expect anything worse than sunburn at silvermine there should not be too many plaques around in any case.

sincere condolences to family and friends.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:51 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:44 am
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I was a friend of his (Francois Goosen) and i find it truely sick reading some of your replies! Have some freakin sympathy ... he died and everyone is battling to come to terms with this. He was the nicest guy, in every way possible, i have ever met. :cry: ! His family would be horrified to read some of these replies and today is is funeral! It's the first time i've been on this forum and im not any sort of climber but believe me i actually regret coming across these posts!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 11:35 am
Posts: 48
Guest,

Why are you so paranoid about a plaque being put up? Why would it cause your world to come to an end?

I can follow your opinion why you see no need for a plaque, but so what if one does get put up? It would probably do more good than bad. It's bound to create some awareness with some climbers / hikers, even if not with you personally.

Come on. What's the mature reasoning behind why there desperately shouldn't be a plaque? Think considerately and for the community as a whole, not in a self centred, opinionated way. Is it because it will ruin the natural environment? That's the only reason I can think of. And quite a poor one if you think about it. We're talking about Silvermine, and it wouldn't make much of a difference anyway.

Or are you just trying to frighten everyone with mighty guest's big scary hammer and chisel :twisted: ? and create a reputation for yourself?

Get real man, this is a very real issue

Very sorry to hear about your friend Francois


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:09 am
Posts: 434
So Sadness: as a friend of Francois Goosen, would he have wanted a plaque fitted at Silver Mine so that he would be remembered?

As a serious question.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:19 pm 
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Cmon on you guys... everyone is entitled to an opinion but we are getting carried away... whatever the guy’s family decides to do for him is their business. i'm sure they won't just go ahead without consulting people… and all our posts are just making it more awkward and depressing for them if they do decide to do something.

Each person has had their say and most of the time they just end up repeating themselves… Think how his friends and family feel with a whole lot people, most of which they properly don't know, making a decision like this on their behalf. :?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:28 pm
Posts: 236
:lol:

Jonah, nobody is paranoid here. Dude, READ the posts. What if everyone wanted to put up a plaque? What if everyone who had a liking for nature had a plaque glued or bolted to a boulder when they die? There would be thousands of little annoying plaques all over the place. As humans, don't we waste enough space already with the million graveyards?

I hear the folks who say that this could act as a warning for other people, but, as GBM put so beautifully in an earlier post, it's not effective.

You live, you die. Don't make it everyone else's problem too. It's just crappy to be outdoors and to see little 'memorials' everywhere. I understand that Everest is littered with memorials and cairns, however, dying is a very big part of the spirit of such a place. Coming to terms with the grave reality of the task at hand, and the fact that over a hundred people have died attempting this dangerous feat. Not at Silvermine, where families want to take the dogs and kids for walks and picknicks. You all say have some respect for the dead. I say, have some respect for those of us who are left behind. We certainly don't need to keep on being reminded that one day we'll also be gone.

Jonah, I am real. Why don't you try to be as well. I am glad that you called me 'mighty' though. It does sound good.

Enough now. This post is over.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 1167
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
okay, if i can have the final say then, ahem, this started as a specific post (regarding the sad death at silvermine) and ended in a general discussion (should there be plaques for every deceased climber). i am not particularly inclined towards guests fiery ways of making his point, but i do think we can cut him some slack here - i'm sure he did not mean to be offensive specifically (generally he loves it as we all know).

sadness dude i hope you see the comments in that light.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:09 am
Posts: 434
I unshamedly & completly agree with Guest on this one. Memorials & plaques in the \"wilds\" are not the way forward, even if it is a sport area. Anyone who should be remembered would not want to leave this sort of mark. Guest's chiping off of any plaque should be considered the greatest respect to the \"remembered\" one.

Free discussion does not necessarily respect God or the living, so why suddenly the dead.


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