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 Post subject: Trad is Rad
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:59 pm 
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Hey brothers (and sisters).
Been thinking a bit lately and realised that a trad lead is the ultimate lead out there. Leading is always a bit self induced, I mean why do you pull the rope after your buddy had successfully lead the climb which you could quite easily top rope now that the top anchors have been threaded?

Exactly my friend, its for your glory and your own self induced ego rush.

Trad is the ultimate lead (besides solo?)(is this leading?), hard core, your destiny within your control (which is very rare these days) and the ability to control the protection and safety margins that we exist in. Bolts are safe and strong but these \"fixed protection\" are means of control, no longer are us climbers in control, the \"bolters\" dictate the level of comfort and risk that you must endure. Bollocks I say, take the plunge, step of the edge, screw the bolters and the bolts, trad is rad :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:30 am 
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I'm confused. How does Trad give you more control over your destiny than sport? And isn't that when it gets interesting? No matter how planned or rehearsed there is always a moment when you have to say, 'oh fuck it, lets just see what happens'...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:27 pm 
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trad leading should be no different from sport. only your quickdraws are lighter. i don't see why your trad lead grade should be way different from your sport. pick a route with good placements and then it's all the same. Runout routes are different i agree but most routes below 22 aren't run out.

I think most trad climbers don't trust their gear. If you learn to trust the gear then you should have just as much faith in trad gear , if not more if you're Marshall :lol: , than bolts. A good trad placement should calm your mind the same way as clipping a bolt.

I think most trrad climbers never test their placements and therefore cannot build up faith and confidence in them. take your gear to a boulder, place it, clip a sling into it so it hangs about 10cm off the ground and then jump on it. you'll soon figure out what works and what doesn't. i really believe aiding is a great exercise in trusting your gear.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:00 pm 
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Rastaman said:
Been thinking a bit lately and realised that a trad lead is the ultimate lead out there. Leading is always a bit self induced, I mean why do you pull the rope after your buddy had successfully lead the climb which you could quite easily top rope now that the top anchors have been threaded?
Exactly my friend, its for your glory and your own self induced ego rush.
:shock: :shock: :shock:

What n bunch of bull.I do it for fun and the challenge doesn't matter if its sport or trad multi or single pitch.
I alway's thought the ''ultimate'' lead would be the route you enjoyed the most never mind trad or sport,grade....
Every-body's ''ultimate'' is different.

Rastaman said:
\"bolters\" dictate the level of comfort and risk that you must endure.
:? :? :?
Not bolting dictates the level of routes you can climb at crags therefore creating a limmit.Maybe you see risk as your challenge where as somebody else rather wants to push grades and not worry about risk for there enjoyment. The routes that I've bolted have been for challenge and fun and to open potential on untradible faces.For me they have all been ultimate routes just like some trad lines have been for others.
Not bolting them would = to minus a lot of fun and routes.

Rastaman said:
Bollocks I say, take the plunge, step of the edge, screw the bolters and the bolts, trad is rad.
:o :o :o
Simple:
face with no gear + some bolts =awesome bolted route.=FUN
Face with cracks + some gear =awesome trad route.= FUN

If you think trad makes you to good for bolted routes then its your ego that needs to be adjusted otherwise enjoy whatever it is you choose and
dont diss the bolters cause i'm shure you have enjoyed many bolted routes in your lifetime.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:09 pm 
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Real Name: Leon Nel
somebody needs to go bolt TM and Magielsberg :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:50 am 
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Routes should only be bolted if there is no pro.

God help us if all lines are Sport. It would take something away from whole mission of getting yourself up a route without the \"safety\" of bolts.

I am not saying that sports climbing is safer - sh1t happens when it happens, either on trad or sport.

You get more exilirated from pulling trought the crux on trad gear than a bolt.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:25 am 
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Quote:
somebody needs to go bolt TM and Magielsberg


what a load of bs. mr Chabalala, have evr climbed trad at these venues? Obviously not, because it would be a waste of bolts to bolt routes there. Magaliesburg actually does have a few bolted routes in the higher grades, but otherwise, everything else is trad'able. I dont understand why people carry on like bolts are safer than trad. I think Douard's post above says it all. The only sense spoken so far on this thread.

Get a life people, who cares if you pull the rope and lead the route after your buddy did it. What's wrong with a bit of a rush on the sharp end. Sounds like a whole bunch of sewing forum grannies here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:23 am 
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Sport vs. Trad again.
Horses for courses I guess.

There have been safe trad ascents of so many established sport lines. I have personally seen this happen on Sickle Moon at the Mine and Gospel Express at Montagu to name two.

There have been trad lines which have been retro-bolted for valid reasons.

Your opinion is only valid if you have opened your own line and only for that route.

Celestial journey is a fantastic trad line, but who are we to stop Dave from bolting the line that he opened? (hypothetical, as no bolts are allowed at the Wolfberg nor do I think Dave is considering it)

Then again, who is to stop AdK from ‘chopping’ L’abraxus (now was it he who opened it, and is that how you spell it?)

The mountain belongs to all, your style of climbing belongs to you.
Don’t mess with established lines if you didn’t open them and climb for your personal reasons. If you don’t have the stomach for certain routes, climb something else.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:35 am 
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I have never climbed trad before and not sure i ever will.Just dont see the point. Long hikes,heavy racks and bad rock. Sport climbing is the only way. I agree with Mr chabalala lets bolt the whole country.....Lead outs on sport routes are probably just as exilerating as trad lead outs


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:08 pm 
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I think both sport and trad have their place, but trad is where it is at for me. Long hikes - sometimes, but no crowds. Heavy racks - not really when split between 2 or 3 folk. Bad rock - NOT! some of the best rock in the country is found on our trad routes, almost anything on TM is has brilliant rock and even some of the DuToitskloof rock is awesome (check out the bomber rock on No more bells).

Oubaas. I like sport climbing too, but leading on trad is waaaaaaay more exhilirating than on sport, having to decide what piece and where to place it, add to that the exposure that you rarely get on sport and the whole mountain setting....trad IS where it is at!

p.s. Hann I recall that Julian Fisher opened L'Abraxas (31) and it has only seen one repeat by Clinton Martinengo.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:15 pm 
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Location: PTA
Trad vs Sport?

hmm...I could swear that we've had his debate before :wink:

my two cents..debating which is better is pointless, its like comparing skeet-shooting with back country hunting or skiing vs snowboarding or skateboarding vs roller-blading....could go on and on and on.....same principle but very different, neither is better, just depends on what you get off on.

Why traddies think that trad is by definition more 'hardcore' or 'pure' is beyond me...sport or trad, its pretty sad when you are doing something to impress others and not for your own enjoyment...we are all on the same side at the end of the day, we all love to get out and climb rock cant see how debating which is better is going to get us anywhere....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:17 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
saying that TM should be bolted is a pretty stupid. Leading is better cos you dont have the damn rope in your face all the time and requires more stamina ... my 2 cents


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:02 am 
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Had a fliping loverly weekend, climbing sweet trad cracks. Perfect weather, 6 new lines, good mates...perfect.

Yea, still floating.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:03 pm 
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Location: Babylondon
FWIW I'll chuck my 2c in. Another vote for trad here. I enjoy both - get a buzz from finally sending a pumping sport route, and a different and more deep seated sense of satisfaction from doing a good trad route. Trad is more about the whole experience than purely focusing on the climbing part of the route. It's the whole adventure thing of going where you want and taking all the of the risk, but all of the reward too. Thinking back of climbing above the forest canopy in Yosemite, and stopping halfway up a perfect hand-crack to admire the view will always be with me.

_________________
\"When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you\". - Oom Nietzsche


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:55 pm 
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I'm still on a buzz from the weekend's climbing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:06 pm 
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Real Name: Grant Marinus
This Reinhold Messner chap's view would probably carry a bit of weight on the subject ...


\"Bolts are the murder of the impossible.\" — Reinhold Messner.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:13 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
Messinhair is an old fuddyduddy! Who gives a rats ass about what he said thirty years ago! The only impossible is the likelyhood of him ever having climbed grade eight! (Remember - they used bolts mostly for aid back then)

The greatest feelings I have gotten from climbing were opening my first 24 (4 bolts, probably harder come to think of it) and simul climbing 100m of easy trad in under ten minutes with a buddy in the Cedarburg. Both totally different experiences, both delivering sensations and lessons that live on in me today. Trad rox! But do whatever you smaak at the time, as PB says sometimes you just gotta say what the heck and just go do it. You never know where or how that ultimate satisfaction is gonna arrive.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:29 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
To clear up some misconceptions:

L'Abraxus was opened by Jonothan Fisher (I know coz I was belaying him) not Julian (Julian wishes he could climb that well!) Its also interesting to note that Clint thinks the line is a lot harder than the 30 originally given by Jono, prob more like 32. Jono just gave it 30 coz his previous hardest was Point Break at 29 and L'Abraxus was the next step harder for him! Jono was defintely ahead of his time in the South African context (as were people like ADK, Chris Lomax etc.)

Celestial Journey was opened with the use of quite a few pegs which were removed by the seconds, its only more recently that it has been climbed clean and has gained its reputation.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:28 am 
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Real Name: Leon Nel
guest and the rest. of course i don't think we should really bolt TM or Magielsberg (and yes i knew of the bolted routes in the Magaliesberg) hence the :lol:

I also don't get this trad vs sport thing. Most people i know climb both trad + sport + bouldering, or at least want to do all three. Trad of course is lot harder to get started in because of the expensive gear and having to learn to place proper placements etc.
Important think is that we all like climbing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:28 am 
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Location: Pretoria
Ice, Ice baby.
The euphoria experienced from a great trad ascent comes almost as close as leading an ice climb 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:25 am 
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Jonothan Fisher, Julian, Clint, Jono,, ADK, Chris Lomax etc. All in one post. Thats not names-dropping thats...names-dumping. There are some that you missed though, Ed Feburary, Mike Roberts...etc.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:35 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
Yup marshmallou, the Robe and Ed deserve cred as do many more. But I think those three (Jono, Lomax, ADK) really pushed the boundaries of what was possible at the time.

PS Couldnt give a toss about name dropping (Im not out to impress anyone) but the facts need to be laid out right.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:15 pm 
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Robyn Barely and I (David Davies ) opened Celestial Journey in September 1978 in much worse style than you suggest, using 1 point of aid on the Peapod crack and 3 points of aid on the Grey face. However three months later, December 1978, we went back and freed it without any aid or pitons. Since that day, I have climbed Celestial Journey every year, free.
So, to get back to your point, it has always had its reputation!!!

As for the greatest climbers, I agree, other than to add Tony Dick to your list of the greats.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:45 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
Shot for the info Dave!

Gotta add Mike Scott to any list of greats too, opened soooooooooo many routes my goodness...


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