I think it would be a good idea to place the first bolt of all new routes +- two/three/four meters above ground level. The reason for this would be to make the bolts less of an eyesore to non climbers passing by (for obvious reasons). It would also make the climbing safer, “the most dangerous clip is usually your second clip”. Obviously this would mean that climbers would need to carry ‘cheat sticks’ with them (in order to clip the first bolt).
What does everyone think this and are you prepared to carry a cheat stick around with you?

You mean there are people out there without a cheat stick

Cheatsick is an irritating name. There are no rules to what methods you employ to practice for the redpoint, so if there are no rules then it cant be cheating. Clipstick would be a better name. I think 1st bolts should be as high as safely possible, but often an uneven or dangerous cliff base might dictate otherwise. All bolts should however be placed so that they can be clipped on lead. Some people think that stick clipping is the same as toproping, if place all first bolts artificially just where it is convenient for your stick to clip, you detract from the quality of the line.

Agreed, clipstick it is from now on!
The main reason for mentioning the use of a clip stick would be to avoid low level bolts which non climbers will see and potentially complain as unsightly - outa sight, outa mind. If a climber has moral issues about clipping before he starts climbing... to bad, at least 99% of the other land users won’t see a bolt and won’t complain about it? (And the morally affected can still solo up to the 1st bolt).
What i'm realy looking for here is a 'Good idea or bad idea?'

I don't like the idea that \"all\" new routes should require a stick, and I wouldn't like to have to carry one around. I do think some routes lend themselves to this approach (i.e. using cheatsticks), though. However, many/most routes don't need a first bolt in the first 3m from the ground anyway.

I'll be blunt, bad idea. What area's do non-climbers use that we frequent for sport climbing. Like has been said, alot of climbs first bolts are quite high anyway. In terms of safety, just bolt safely and paint the hanger, it works very well, look at Skoorsteenskop, alot of those bolts are very hard to spot from close up.I was at Paarl once, and there were some non-climbers below Parklife, and we commented on the bolts and they had no idea they were there (including Daves shiney new bolts). Imagine every climber walking around with a 'clipstick' (politically correct term hey Grigri), it just won't work. Nice idea though and maybe for certain areas like Llandudno

Cool, can agree. Let’s just keep the idea in the back of our minds when bolting in sensitive areas, Llandudno being a good example.

As pointed out above, walking around with a cheat/clip stick is a personal choice. I don't move without it, so I would not be phased by such a move. However, I am not convinced that low bolts are in isolation a problem for non climbers. But having said this it would be nice to try establish if they were a problem and if so, should we not adjust our practices.

Definately, if an area is used by non-climbers as well, I think some consideration should be given to them to keep eveyone happy. How many people actually use sticks, I've never seen one at a crag before.

How about a super long cheat stick so you can clip the anchors and then we wont need any bolts. Bad idea Justin , if we carry a humungus crash pad we might be able to do away with bolts and anchors. Impact is impact, a bolt 3m off the ground is no where near as visual as the chalk, trampled bushes or cigaret buts, once again, barking up the wronge tree. Here is to safe cliping on lead 2m up or 5m up

The latest Climbing gear guide in this regard was quite interesting. It seemed to treat cheat sticks as standard sport climbing gear. Based on this I would not be surprised if cheat sticks do in fact become standard and sport routes development becomes influenced accordingly.

I agree with Stu regarding painting of the hangers. Give it a good coat of \"NS4\", they come in different colors, mainly used are red and black, it does wonders in protecting metal from rust, though the hargerns are stainless steel. But once on the rock you can barely seen them. Skoorsteen Kop is a goot example and I have even seen black painted hangers at paarl rock - well it took me quite some time to find them . Walking around with a \"ClipStick\" mmm, naahh that aint me, I prefer to climb the route from ground up and clip them as I go

Apart from non-climbers that hardly ever visit the sport climbing sites; non-climbers won't even notice the hangers on the rock. They don't look at the rock in the same way we do. They don't see potential lines to follow, they don't scan it for possible holds. Besides all that, the bolts at most (read: all) places I've been to were rather inconspicuous - you have to LOOK for them to be able to see them.

For goodness sake will y'all get over your guilty consciences about defiling the beautiful sacred rock with those monstrous industrial things...the shock of it all!!! Hey man bolts are beautiful too, ok, and like sport climbers have a right to exist too. The tourons can just like it or lump off and find somewhere else too hike! Now if you want to fret over eyesores; why dont we all use brown or grey chalk?

After living in Europe for four years, you kind of get tired of having to boat it to the first bolt all the time. I thought we had done a pretty good job in SA of instigating a culture in which bolted climbs are safe from the first metre. Let's not spoil it with suggestions like this, Justin. Paddy's the only climber I know who always has a cheat stick with him - these things are hardly going to become standard climbing equipment.

You're probably right Doug. Even if cheat sticks were to become a common accessory, it would still be a pain to have to resort to a stick for every single route. But I think Justin's concerns were with non-climbers sensitivities, not with climbers and their sensitivities are surely currently guess work. And anyway as said above, why should climbers always be the accomadating party. So I agree with you; why change what seems to be a nice standard, unless one is sure about the issue.

Non-climbers sensitivities... hmmm important. Need to think this through a bit though... In terms of 'visual impact' the majority of sport crags are located away from general public areas. Some - such as those at the restuarant have a very specific sense of place i.e. its very much a climbing area so its not surprising to see bolts. The chalk is more visible than the bolts quite often. Lastly - all bolts in area with potentially sensitive viewers (i.e. non-climbers) should be painted a colour similar to the rock into which they are going e.g. grayish at paarl, brown/red at montagu etc. This will camoflage all of the bolts and stop that glinting in the sun effect that you can get from far away which might impact on viewers... Much better than the death defying 4m start whilst the belayer avoids that wish-I'd-remembered-the-bouldering-mat-soI-don't-get-squashed-by-the-climber-~20kg's-heavier-than-me feeling

I thinks it could work in sensitive areas. Places like the Cederburg could have the first bolt high and the bolts themselves sprayed brown/black.
This must help with access issues?
Perhaps if we camouflaged them well enough we could bolt some trad lines and the trad climbers wouldn't notice.

A sport climber beating stick would really cool.

I have to admit to not reading all the previous posts so I'm sorry if I repeat someone elses comment or offend anyone? But I think sport routes are often over bolted with the intention of making them safer? More is often not better! Most times being able to clip the first bolt from the ground for example makes no sense, it may make some feel safer but in reality will do nothing to stop you from hiting the ground! People often boulder up to four meters without getting gripped but as soon as they tie-in they want bolts every meter? I personally think you should put the bolts where you NEED them... I think clipping unnessesary bolts distracts from the pleasure of climbing. The only reason I commented is the unnerving reality that recently people that have very little climbing experience are putting up rediculous routes - Lower Silvermine is a prime example! I don't say we should restrict bolting but people should think before putting up routes. Just because there is a way up the rock does NOT mean it is a potential route! Some line are crap and we should let them be... besides the birds need somewhere to nest

I don’t know about the whole stick thing? We stand the risk of a climbing outing looking like an annual Zulu convention armed with traditional weapons, we are going to get the cops involved and have to get special permission to convene climbing meets in public etc… and somehow it just kind of goes against the puritan sense to have to start aiding from the ground up…

I was in Montagu in December and noted that all/most of the hangers had been spray painted (before being put up) – how difficult could that be?

And since when have climbers really cared about the comments from a bunch of hikers dragging their tails and knuckles on the ground? Ok ok – I’ll leave now….

Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Oh, dry your eyes and get a grip man!

Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Guest, I dont think Chalk's comment was racist at all. He was being sarcastic about how it would look with everybody walking around with sticks thats all. He might as well have compared it to a line up of pole vaulters. Don't make issues out of nothing

Chalk's comment was racist. If you do not know the meaning of the term then look it up [Now I suppose u'r gonna!]...and he shouted down a good idea on the basis of looking like a tribe of Zulus. You only need ONE device per party and as you can see from the device above, you don't need spears and assegais to use it. Chalk sounds like a hiker amateur in any case, and even if he was just joking, it's not cool. That's my opinion, take it or leave it.

CHEAT STICKS RULE!!!! LONG LIVE THE CHEAT STICK!!!!!!!

Guest its people like u who cause others to become racist.U have a kak attitude.Sort your issues out before u do more damage.U are doing more harm in bringing this racist subject up and falsely accusing others then anybody else on this form!!Stop trying to get attention by changeging the focus of this topic.I,m shure theres chatgroupes for people like u.
Anyway Back to Cheatsticks!!?

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Wie's jou pappa!

When I was a newbie climber I met one of our local luminaries at the crag (he shall remain nameless for now). When I'd finished grovelling and paying due homage to this radest of the rad, I mentioned that I thought his \"cheat stick\" was a pretty cool thing. The immediate and rather caustic reply was, \"It's not a cheat stick! It's a clip stick when I use it\"

Anyway, I never have room in my pack to fit a clip stick. I barely have room for a toothbrush, large brush, spanner (for loose hangers), spray bottle (for cleaning chalk), rag (assorted uses), bog roll, rack (sport), rack (trad), chalk bag, spare chalk (don't leave home without it), small spade (see bog roll), rope, harness, sun screen, gortex shell (hate being exposed to the elements), hat, sunglasses, water (a happy climber pee's clear), food (need energy for that send), route guide, headlamp (never leave home without it), trekking poles (gotta look hardcore), fleece, 5 pairs of climbing shoes (makes a big difference...really), assorted slings, helmet, etc...

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You have an opinion, so do I. When these differ, please don't confuse your opinion with the truth, nothing is absolute.

Ok ok – to all the sensitive climbers out there, I rub my shaven head with chalk and I humbly apologise for offending the Zulu nation. To all the climbers who took offence – you know what you can do with your stick… to the Chinese and Canadian climbers (and I take offence to the exclusion of all the other nations of climbers) I seriously doubt that they took offence.

As for placing the first bolt high… I personally don’t think it should be higher that what you could safely boulder to.

Oh and ps, I actually served with a Zulu regiment for a long time, I happen to know that they have a great since of humour, unlike some of us….