(As requested by Baby, no more thread-jacking...)

Marshall, valid points and I try to see things from both sides, but unfortunately I keep on seeing this one attitude displayed by MCSA members towards outsiders. As a prime example, see the post by Gareth Frost on the Catwalk thread. Cheap shot from my side perhaps, I dunno, but that "I told you so" attitude while they sponsored bolts?? I'd like to hear the explanation, the REAL story behind that catastrophe ( ) but it seems it's been covered up real quick by all sorts of lawyers and politics.

As for my lost interest, on top of the issue above which deeply concerns me as it goes to the ethics of the club along with a rather disappointing "newbie info" evening (no, I did not expect fireworks upon my arrival, but some willingness to talk would've been nice. Next time I'll sponsor my own fireworks, thank you very much)

OK, so they are doing it for free.
So what? Does that entitle them to the unresponsiveness and attitude?

Change it from within? Maybe, but quite frankly I'm not all that keen in spending my time trying to prove my clique-worthiness and try change a bunch of people with an inflated sense of self importance.

Heaven help if they find out I don't have a degree in something, uneducated fool that I am. Maybe thats what the sleepover party is for, so they can "Kamp Staaldraad" it out of you, all your dirty little secrets.

My apologies to all the MCSA members who do not fall into the above categories - I'm just not sure which group is the exception. It's sad that general sub-standard ethics, attitudes etc. have become not only the norm in this country, but is seen as quite OK as long as it's "free" and you don't get shot at. Perhaps if I keep this up the "shot at" part might change, some excitement at last......

I've made a commitment to my friends to join, I'm not quick to break those. If it's good, I might tattoo the badge on my arm. Lookout MCSA, here I come. I'll leave a letter detailing everything with my lawyer, with instruction to send it to the authorities in case anything happens to me.

(That was a joke. Post to be taken with pinch of salt, lemon & tequila, 'cause it makes me happy. Brolloks, I'll sponsor the tequila, steal your own lemon)

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Live fast, die young & leave a good looking corpse

OneDogClimbing, what area of the country are you in? The different sections of the club operate independently of one another (i.e. which section are you having a go at?

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Grow a spine China - easy to crit if you are on the outside, hey?

The MCSA has done more than anyone for Climbing in SA - pray tell, what have you done?

Uuum, Onedogclimbing for someone complaining about ego's you certainly send out an \"inflated sense of self importance\" vibe yourself. You might just fit right in.

Hahaha, I like this debate
I am KZN MCSA and am not willing to tarnsfer to Jo'burg nor Magalies, due to \"politics\" I recently wanted to (stay in Gauteng), but after a few emails and phonecalls, I am sticking with KZN.

Remember Dog, the people calling the shots at MCSA are too old and doesn't climb. So it seems anyway.
Why you have to join 3 field trips to join blows my mind.
Which sane young climber wants to spend weekends with old hikers or family campers on some \"meet\", just to be able to join ?

Contact KZN MCSA

I am a member of the MCSA and have found that in general the people, including the older members are really nice people. They are generally more friendly once they get to know you, but I think that would apply to any aspect of life. I have been involved in other sports which are similar to climbing in that they are individulistic sports (one being spearfishing) and it is the same for all of them. They by their very nature are prone to be cliqueqy(????) as Marshall says climbers in general especially the older breed of climbers are less sociable animals than our newer generation of sport climbers. That said I have had one seriously unsavoury incident with one of the older lady members of the club being exceptionally rude towards me and my party of climbers at Du Toits Kloof hut. I was left with the distinct impression that we were not welcome at the hut. It was clear to me that anybody that had had an experience like this would be left with a very bad taste in their mouths regarding snobbery etc in the MCSA.

Regarding \"what we are doing for the climbing community \" ...
If you point out routes at craggs or help other climbers with beta or just a smile, you are already doing something for the climbing community.
Pick up some garbage or pull a weed ...

The people doing the most for climbing are probably unknown, and they do it for their passion for the mountains.

The PTA & JHB sections. Had similar experiences with both. I don't know about the others, I was not aware that I may be able to join another section as per Skapie's post.

Please understand, I don't have some sort of vendetta, I'm just complaining a bit, it beats working anyway.

I take it you speak with some authority then? Which section are you from? I'm critting from the outside because I was not able to join yet, due to MCSA regulations. The overnight stays are not held every weekend you know. (Or perhaps they have many but only publish the "Kamp Staaldraad specials" for newbies? )

Not much, picked up some garbage, introduced some new people and made sure they keep the place clean. Trying / busy hooking up with MCSA, proving tricky & cumbersome.

The cumbersome procedure to join is a relatively minor irritation, however, the issue around the Catwalk access raises some questions, which strangely remain unanswered. Why should anyone be queuing to join if issues like that remain mysteries?

I think you're taking my rant a bit too seriously. Lighten up, I'm making fun of myself half the time.

Correct. I can imagine some validish reason for that, weed out the coke sniffers, mainliners & all, but on the other hand why not just take my money and go do something worthwhile with it? That's the rules, so I guess I'll have to play along. I'm told I snore very loudly, so I'll probably be politely declined anyway

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Live fast, die young & leave a good looking corpse

Like you still \"busy\" joining. I have had a good reception from ALL members - JHB. People don't just come over and do cartwheels because you have arrived - you have to make the effort too. I don't know what you mean by Kamp Staaldraad - I have been to a camp, with young and old people from the MCSA and yes, it was fun.

Do you perhaps have people skills problems that you can't speak or relate to old folk, or do you think they have no place in the mountains?

Make an effort...

Ditto Onedog, check out the in my post.
take a look at older threads and you'll find I had a good go at the MCSA for their application procedures...

No prb Stu, cheers.

Pillick: I think you're taking this way too seriously. Kampstaaldraad = joke. A big joke. Where were you the past couple of years? I'm really just taking a light stab at what I consider to be a silly requirement.

And yes, \"busy\". Busy watching the clock tick by so I can go on the overnight camp as required. I can camp out in my backyard too, willing to send pics but I doubt that's acceptable.

Where do you get off with the old folk bit? All I said was that it was not a warm reception, not by a long shot, but I still spoke to the people....

Maybe your bunch had a bit more to drink than mine?

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Live fast, die young & leave a good looking corpse

Have you ever thought about it, that the \"silly little requirement\" could perhaps be an attemp to build a little team spirit (like your Kampstaaldraad attempted to do with the Boks, but failed miserably ) - or perhaps to show you that you too can part of a bigger picture of conserving our mountainous areas for future generations?

Sorry, having a bad day - I understand your jest.

No prob pillick, glad to see you're \"back\" - was beginning to worry that they've assimilated(1) you and that you're one of \"them\" now

I do imagine several reasons for the required camp and I really get it, but I still don't like it. If I fart or snore too much, to loud, or make \"the young woman squeal\"(2) (or is it the old woman blush? ) - I don't want the whole MCSA to know about it. I like my privacy and being \"forced\" to go out in a group just to get accepted is not my idea of fun, no matter how you pitch it. But that's fine, I'll do it.

To me it makes more sense to run it like a business. Get as many people as possible to join, which usually requires making it as easy as possible. Have you noticed how easy it is to tie yourself into recurring payment via some BS cell service? Next, obviously you want to screen and separate the the hooligans (possibly me in this category) from the real bunny huggers before you let them loose into protected areas and / or allow them to enjoy the same benefits as the dedicated members. Let the people who attend X meets & outings gain access to \"Club Fig tree\" (or something ) , similar to Discovery's Vitality or the myriad other reward schemes out there. That way you get the best of both worlds - the serious folk, as is the case now, enjoy access to protected and exclusive places (correct me if I'm wrong) and the rest ensures a nice kitty with their membership fees to work with through the year.

Anyway, thats me and it's fine if it's not run that way, moving on.

Once I've been accepted in the \"circle of trust\"(3), I'll start working on creating the Bikini Bouldering League, invite you over & you JHB okies can buy us some beers while we check out chicks with whom a guy should probably not mess.

1 \"Start Trek: We are the Borg, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile.\"
2 ZZ Top - Bad To The Bone
3 \"Meet the Fockers\"

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Live fast, die young & leave a good looking corpse

Ok - so I have read all the posts above and am still at a loss as to what, why or who – but I think its safe to assume that its just a slugging match again …

I like to think the MCSA represents the interests of the climbing community (which is, sometimes, at odds with personal interests of climbers)….

If you don’t like it – don’t use it. If you feel so passionate about the wrongs, join the club and change it…

so, i basically stopped reading when you mentioned tequila, dog...

so, what i did was, i ran over to the dominie's yard(for the suurlemoene man), tried to jump the fence, but my foot got stuck, so i fell. the noise woke the dudes dog(damn steekbaard loudmouth), which then came a-barkin at my flattened form, firstly frightening me to the point of heart failure, then almost drowning me in its 'happy dog slobber'. but with the dominie its wasn't so nice...

he off course wanted to know what i was doin' frightening his dog! i couldn't say much cause my mouth was covered (and a bit full of) the dirt i just ate...

so, now i've got access issues regarding church on sunday, and all this for a blerrie suurlemoen!

damn you dog! you jacked my train of thought with that tequila remark, and now see what i have to deal with...


it sucks to be poor......

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you have one mouth, two ears. listen more...

so, what are we talking about?

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you have one mouth, two ears. listen more...

Without pointing fingers at either side (MCSA vs non-MCSA) I'm just wondering if there's still going to be a meaningful MCSA in 20yrs time with the rate at which the younger generation are (NOT) joining?

Let's get real, this thread is about perceptions and assumptions - the mother of all f*ck up's it seems.
There is a huge difference between the 'old' MCSA and the 2007 MCSA. Check out all the retro-bolting efforts they have done in the Cape and up north - these are not the actions of an impotent organistion. Or page through the mags and guidebooks, you'll find ads of a new-look MCSA. Sure there are older members but there are also younger members.
Sure, every organisation has it's it's faults but focusing on one fault and then labeling the entire organisation as useless is idiotic.

\"I'm just wondering if there's still going to be a meaningful MCSA in 20yrs time with the rate at which the younger generation are (NOT) joining?\"

There are records of this question about the MCSA's future being raised from 60, 40 & 20 years back.

I have never walked, hiked or camped with the MCSA. Only ever been on climbing meets. Lots pisses me off in the club, but I recon I piss them off more. I only attend meeting if I have a bottle of port to help me through.

@ OneDog - Duuudeee, you have been watching too many Trekkie movies!!!

First you b!tch about the \"Elitists\", then you suggest creating an \"Elitist\" group within the \"Elitist\"????? WTF??? Tequila is obviously your friend...

Yeees! A circle of trust within a circle of trust! How about another one, a third tier for the fierce lovers of nature, the bunch who decontaminate their shoe soles every 0.25km so as to not artificially introduce matter to ecological zones, one that requires a 13 step foot & hand secret shake?

So what? Depending on the goal it's a perfectly good way of attaining it. A good incentive to participate, don't you think?

PS:
A definition for elitist: "the consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group". Would you not say that the MCSA is a select group? Not all bad is it?


I lost track. BS. Semantics. Access issues. Lemons & church. Check JOTD for a change of subject.

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Live fast, die young & leave a good looking corpse

I'm in MCSA JHB. And as far as I'm concerned the club is going to be around for many years to come... Do you have any idea how much land they own???

Another thing the club will mostly be run by the older folks as they the ones who have the time to do so...

Another thing... to all the MCSA haters out there. If you have an accident in the mountains and you lying at the bottom of a 60 meter gorge that is only 15 meters wide with a broken back. I hardly think you'll be telling the MCSA rescue team to take the Air force Oryx and the party of 15 people it just flew in to help you, that they are a bunch of snobs and they must bugger off and rather call the local emergency services to do your extraction...

The rescue team does not ask what nationality you are... It does not ask if you are a member... and it doesn’t ask you if you got a medical aid!
And they wont send you a bill for the rescue; even if they used a helicopter that costs bucket full of money!
If you land up in the kak they will do what ever they can to help you.

The club is also the biggest contributor of bolts for the development of climbing... but don’t start with me on that one! but it just goes to show you that you get those outside the club against the ones inside the club and then you still get the ones inside the club against others inside the club This is not a perfect world and it never will be! So just do what you think is right and quit with the bickering

Right! Well said... I couldn't make last night, but I'll be round for an application soon enough. Climbing is climbing!

so if we join do we get taught the secret handshake and get to wear hoods and spank each other with little wooden paddles?

Hey guys, we should let autocratic-scum become a member. He seems open to paddles & stuff. It should be 3 official meets or a spanking.

It was a lot more fun having arguments like this (along with bolts, trad, epic stories) over a few (or many) beers after a great day at the crag. So mucch mre fn - hey Woger, tha nexch beeers on yoo.

I think the Mountain Club of South Africa should have an official group on facebook http://www.facebook.com so that when people type in Mountain club of South Africa in search, it will come up. This would give the Mountain Club of South Africa more exposure.

Have a Nice Christmas and New Year everyone!

Yea...we could change the name to Facebook Club of South Africa.