Was just wondering whether it is expected of the climbers out there who are putting up new lines to donate. I have spent way over the required R200 already recently. Just curious what others are doing.

I see climbing as quite a luxury, and the very nature of what we do seems quite eccentric to me. There are obviously no rules about people needing to pay anything. All of the routes I've put up have come from my own pocket. Ultimately, what happens when I see a good line is that my obsession to climb it overrides my current financial status and I personally would never expect money from any other climbers for anything. The feeling of putting up a great line and watching everyone enjoy it is payback enough for me. I'm not an MCSA member myself, but the concept of everybody annually paying a fee, and then the club distributing these funds is cool. I would guess if you joined up with them, you'd feel like you were making a contribution to everyone. They do supply bolts and have drills, so your best contribution would be to just keep smiling at the crags and if you see a good line, or a rusty bolt, try to make the effort, cos then everyone benefits. Same goes for trash left at the crags, if you didnt throw it there, you should still pick it up as it reflects on us all.

ps-if you do feel like throwing some cash my way, I'll not stop you. Just email me and I'll send you my bank account details. (I also take cheques).

Hi SOC - we don't all earn a film star salary, so please feel free to donate a portion of the R200. Of course you could also think of it in terms of \"how much would I be willing to pay for my life?\" There are other ways for people to add value to climbing - please feel free to volunteer your services to help projects like this.

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AndyDavies

Andy, perhaps the CNC should be giving some money back? Every time I climb at silvermine each of us have to pay R10. The only reason we go there is to climb, hence, without the climbing they would not get my R10. Therefore it makes sense that they spend some of their money on making the climbing safer. I agree we should all chip in and help where we can, but I think it's a cheek to ask for cash when the MCSA gets my money each year and the CNC every time I climb in one of their parks.

What kind of statement is...\"how much would I be willing to pay for my life?\". Is this supposed to make us drop our toys and open our wallets? Just remember, no climber is obliged to help or pay up. we all do this sport cos we love the passtime. Some of us more than others, enough to dedicate alot of time and money to it, others not. Just remember that if you want to spend your weekend building paths, I dont have to. CNC gets my cash all the time and if they cant spend a few bob of that hiring some \"pathway technicians\" then it's not my problem. The little time I get off I'd like to spend enjoying the climbing thank you.

I dont see what there is to get so stressed about? No-one is required to make a contribution! Annual MCSA subs go towards a number of different causes (whether or not you agree with the distribution is another story) which may not be the best solution to the problem. Any \"controlling body\" (MCSA or Access control) usually has limitted resources which usually results in a solve the problem when it happens type attitude. I think putting together a specific fund to address the problem will go a long way to ensuring that the routes are fixed ONCE and fixed PROPERLY and that your contribution is applied to what really matters most to you. The idea of spend once and spend well applies. I really appreciate the guys who go out and bolt new routes and maintain the old ones, I dont believe there are many of them out there, so why not make there effort a bit easier and more worthwhile? And once again nobody has to contribute.

Hi Dingo...

I have made some super friends in the past 17 years of climbing. If one of them were to die or get injured due to a failed bolt I would be highly upset. So instead of talking and complaining, a small group of us from the MCSA intend making climbing as safe as reasonably possible in the Cape. While we are busy getting things done maybe YOU can spend some of your time off by trying to get Cape Nature to fix the paths and bolts. (PS Silvermine crags are on SAFCOL property so you may want to ask them for the money)

The MCSA will be supporting ARF financially, but we need to use the limited MCSA resources where it may be difficult to raise money. ARF is a clearly defined project that effects us all and its a good oppurtunity for all the conciencous climbers to put something back into such a great sport.

Regarding your comments about myself maintaining paths on the weekends, well if more people like yourself got involved that wouldn't be necessary. We can take preventative measures (easy) or sit and whine on our fat asses and then fix our access paths after they have been washed away (a classic example is the road up to the Mine).

Finally I am amazed how somebody can shoot down such good initiatives that intend making that climbing experience so much better for you.

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AndyDavies

There are quite a few (but way too few) climbers out there putting in a huge amount of time and effort for the benefit of the sport of climbing. I find it astonishing that there will always be a small number of individuals who do nothing other than whine and bitch over issues about which they have no intention of doing anything positive.

Any initiative that promotes safety in this sport should be encouraged. The mountain club is putting in a lot of money to support incentives such as this. Sure, not everyone earns a good salary. But some do. Most could afford a contribution to help make our crags safer... or do they have the \"it will never happen to me\" approach to accidents?

Many folk are working away behind the scenes, ensuring access (so YOU can go and climb), doing pathbuilding (do you think we ENJOY pathbuilding?? Geez), training in search and rescue (so YOUR ass can get hauled out safely when sh*t happens in the mountains), doing admin, etc. Hell, these folks would also prefer to just go out and climb, but they feel the need to put something back into this activity called climbing, that has given them so much fun, satisfaction and cool vibes.

cheers,
Brent
ps, CNC doesn't own Silvermine, or any part of the TMNP.... ah, whateva.

Dingo, you are making the typical assumption that climbing is a fundamental human right and that you as a bolt clipper have an irrevocable mandate to go out and clip safe bolts whenever you feel like it without ever having to do anything in return.

Wake up, dude. Climbers are a very small subset of the public using TMNP and for that matter any other place where we climb and as such not many people other than climbers are going to shed a tear if climbing access to these areas is closed.

In fact, plenty of people i know will be pretty hapy about it. So we are walking on a thin line where stuffing up means that we wont be able to climb any more. Simple. Stuffing up constitutes just about anything that gives climbing a bad rep : bolts breaking and people getting hurt, erosion, whetever.

So what can we do? Sit and gripe about two hundred bucks? Wait for a miracle to happen and a climber to become head of CNC? Or do what Andy and his Oompa Loompas are doing and try to perform some rapid damage control so that the powers that be start seeing climbers as a worthwhile segment of the populace and not just a bunch of walking safety hazards and environmental disasters.

So some simple facts for you:

1) No-one except climbers gives a stuff about climbing.
2) Climbing is not your divine right.
3) The bolts are gonna break and the paths are gonna erode no matter how much you whinge about it.
4)TMNP are at best going to do nothing and at worst going to close down the crags.
5) Your MCSA membership is about R300/year. For that money you get a clubhouse, climbing wall, journal, access to about a million square kilometers of MCSA land (Magaliesberg, Boven, etc etc) MCSA huts and a whole lot of other stuff. Where, pray tell, is the R200 bolting money supposed to come from?
6) The R10 or whatever you pay to get into silvermine (1 of the 5 crags where re-bolting is happening, by the way) goes towards the roads, conservation and maintenance.

Dingo, please don't mention that you are an MCSA member on line. It a bit too public & we don't want people to know that we have a**s like you in the M club.

Capetonians are nasty people. Hairy Uncle, I do not appreciate being called an asshole. Carl, thanks for the reply. Neat points, very corporate of you indeed.

\"6) The R10 or whatever you pay to get into silvermine (1 of the 5 crags where re-bolting is happening, by the way) goes towards the roads, conservation and maintenance.\" in your statement, does this maintainance not include climbing? Anyway, it's typical in a forum like this for people to just attack each other. Whatever.

Dingo you might notice that everyone is attacking you. Your negativity towards these positive proposals is like a bad virus. Go spread it elsewhere.

Sorry Dingo. But it is really embarasing having your attitude asociated with climbing. More so your suposed association to the MCSA.

oh please,some one makes a comment you all dont agree with and now he's \"negative\". whatever. wanna hear something nasty now. From reading your two posts I can see that combined, you have the intelligence of a gnat. go ufck yourselves.

Dingo, you are very funny.
You are provocatively rude in most of your posts. You don't offer constructive criticism, but rather just jump in with a nasty comment. And then you seem genuinely surprised when people return the favour....

And while you're on the subject of intelligence, (just a word from the wise ) \"passtime\" is spelled with one s.

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All that is gold does not glitter; not all those that wander are lost.

People, stop all your moaning and personal attacks, even if it is to correct a persons spelling. If I remember correctly this thread was about the ARF. I think its a fantastic idea and I would like to thank Andy and the rest for their efforts.

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\"If you don't break your ropes while you're alive do you think ghosts will do it after?\" -
Kabir

Hey Timmy. More than actually trying to correct his spelling, what I was trying to point out was that a person shouldn't go around making rude remarks to others unless they are pretty sure that the same criticism can't be levelled at them...
Obviously I was a bit too cryptic. I should have just said that.

You're absolutely right, though. There is too much moaning and people do get too personal on these forums sometimes. Would be nice if we could just keep it to climbing.
And on that note...

I think the ARF is a great initiative. Climbers are actually very lucky with how little the sport ends up costing them (once you have all the gear, obviously ). Climbing weekends are cheap in comparison to a lot of other recreation. Access to crags is often free and if there is a fee charged it is usually pretty nominal. It's quite sad that people aren't more willing to contribute financially to assist the guys who put in time, effort and their own funds in order to enable the rest of us to keep enjoying our sport.

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All that is gold does not glitter; not all those that wander are lost.

you were not too cryptic

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\"If you don't break your ropes while you're alive do you think ghosts will do it after?\" -
Kabir

ARF is a great idea. But is going to require alot of support & will need to be ongoing. 35 grand is a lot of money. Nobody has to do anything. But if you can, give what you can.

Possibly some sort of ARF 'tax' should be levied on every Western Cape Crag Guide sold.

Dingo, I am quiting for now. It has been fun.

Dingo is a lost soul! Does he not click that he needs paths to walk to the crags on, that these need maintenance; that the bolts he loves to clip also cost big bucks to place, that they too require maintenance? Sorry dingle-dude but you are an ass!

Its about time there was an official initiative to help the bolting efforts of local developers. The ARF has my backing despite the fact that I have already poured thousands into route development. Come guys open up those wallets and show you care about our sport!

is Dingo wys to the concept of Darwin Awards ???

oh please greg hart, you are an ass. what do you need a little pathy for? what's wrong with just bashing your way through nature to the crags? since I only climb trad these days, I really hope your bolts rust fast so that we can all get back to the real issue, and that is climbing. You guys carry on about money for this and that and paths and everyone must chip in and sit around the crampfire with little scones and make a cute little climber family, hey maybe we should all chip in and buy a cool old van and then we can do little road trips to montague, I'll get my mum to make some nice cucumber sarmies!

Hi Dingo, I think you need a hug, p.s. I have made your sarmies

Perhaps Dingbat would be a better moniker?

First he maintains that he's a climber, then he publicly admits to being a member of the MCSA. And now he's a trad climber.

Ding - its so embarasing! please stop!