Is the concept of sponsoring in its essence something that poisons the activity that it is trying to benefit?

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‎"Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure, life is either a daring adventure or nothing" - Helen Keller

Over scrutinizing & over thinking is what kill all activity.

My answer is no.
I'm assuming you're talking about athlete sponsorship? Most often sponsorship provides athletes the opportunity to go forward and push the limits of the sport.

I take you're talking about the many bolts that got nailed into the compressor route!? Lama should have know better (perhaps he was too young to realise this) and Messener should have warned him about it during their chat together (translated by Google).

This is not the first time a film crew have wrecked a film location, I've seen film crews do terrible things myself, I've spoken to Parks officials who have ejected film crews out of national parks because they start wrecking the place ignored the first round of warnings.
That said, not all film crews are necessarily bad.

This entire website is sponsored (yes, essentially they are adverts) with a bit of love for the sport thrown in for good measure.
Without them this site would not exist.

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Here is my 2c.

This argument reminds me of a song. I won't make you all listen to it, but the basic gist is that this fan of a band accuses the lead singer of



The artist then tells him the following



He goes on to conclude



The song is a great look at compromising ones perceived morals to achieve something you wouldn't be able to do without the compromise. It also reminds me that all the cool climbing videos, posters, stickers and gear we oggle on the internet is backed by a massive marketing machine that makes our sport popular. I'm not saying its right, but until we all stop buying labels and supporting those cool climbing movies (plastered with sponsors' names), we should be careful about pointing fingers. Its that marketing machine which sells units and funds R&D on all the cool gear we get to use.

zb.

are guns evil?? depends on how & why you use it..... impact of money/power/access/whatever depends on the person who has it. now money has a rather powerful ability to corrup (or eveal inherent corruption?) but that does not say it in itself is evil. as the apostle says "the love of money is the root of all kinds of evel".

Pure evil

...I KNOW....I'm totally checking out that BLACK DIAMOND #1 Camalot(tm)!

zb.

Hey Nic

The following paragraph is a philosophical answer for Nic as I think the likes this sort of thing.

No. Its the lack of integrity, ethics and the failing to comprehend what is the consequence of your actions that are the problems. In the Lama issue its not so much the placing of the bolts that gets me, its the lack of comprehesion that there is a problem with doing so that is the issue. You cannot make an informed decision regarding your actions and the consequences thereof if you don't comprehend the issues. This is a general failing of society today esp the younger generations, a generalisation I know. In your signiture you metion soldiers are mainly fools (or somesuch) this is because fools don't have the imagination to recognise the consequenses of war. Society is being dumbed down all the time through media and instant gratification etc this leads to a "me" perspective which means that if consequences do not effect the me (induvidual) it does not matter how it effects the us (society).

So my point is that sponsorship does not corrupt, it is only a problem if used by the corrupt. I don't think that the Lama issue is truely evil but I would like to give the Red Bull crowd a punch in the face.

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Fat men are harder to kidnap

iank, we salute you!

Don't look now Wayne, but them pesky kids are on your lawn again. Best stop posting and go yell at those rascals.

You know what also gets me all this sex and violence on TV. If I had my way they'd only be showing re-runs of "Lassy" and "Little house on the Prairie".

Now where did I put my reading glasses and cane.

Hang on....where am I? I'm lost and confused.

DUUUUUUUUUDE!! WHere did you get that picture i want more!!!Check out those cams!!!

People in the movie industry tend to have a view that they are more special than the rest of us and can do what they want.
"Oh it's being filmed" means a licence to gaan aan.
Try chatting to movie people socially. The urge to slap is quite strong

What is this TV that you talk of?

Seriously though when last did you see kids playing on the grass and just for the record I think that there should be more sex on TV.

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Fat men are harder to kidnap

climbing porn...... and she's like 14 sies julle perverts

i should have lived in the early 1900s with SNORT & co when they were young....

That there fine young lady with the yummy cams might climb 5.14 but definitely is not 14! Tommy'll have your balls for saying things like that!

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...Chalk is cheap...

This idea older generations have higher morals rests with the consept that the past was good & pure...

When I look back on my fathers generation & what they got-up-to in Southern Africa, & further to my grandfathers generation; I realize that playstation, a few drugs, sex, swearing, porn, drink & any other shit my kid gets upto; does not compare with bombing major cities(flat) & general war.

nah don't think it's beth..... is it?????

moral debates on forums generally gets nowhere, but since i'm typing.... some of the stuff the older generations got up to wasn't cool but saying my evil is lesser than your evil so its okay is just stoopid.

HIV & other STDs has a body count that makes any war pale in comparison. & never mind the general psychological issues that results in higher sales of anti-depressants than smarties to teenage kids today. ja ja the king has no clothes on......

Thanks for all the replies, pity threads always tend to get derailed..
I asked in reply to a comment Snort* made, not in connection with any current event; I wanted to find out what the climbing community at large thought of the idea of sponsorship and whether others agree'd with Snort's* view.

I don't agree with the one dimensional "sponsorship is evil" but those that are sponsored do things that are considered inappropriate, and I think that it has to do with many other factors and the pure act of sponsoring a person - for whatever purpose, is either a very small factor or not factor worth looking at on its own.

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‎"Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure, life is either a daring adventure or nothing" - Helen Keller

Beth and Tommy are no more. She ran off with some French guy, I believe. Seems to have spiced her up though. Hopefully the voice is also sexier!

Shew that beth chick is lekker!!! If Tommy and her are no more does anyone know where she hangs out? I always did think he was a bit of a dweeb.

Is this not a symptom of the post-modern era that we are in? A hundred years ago we set foot on both north and south poles, 50 years ago we wondered around the craters of the moon, today we can be anywhere in the world in 24 hours-with enough money.

We now look back at our predecessors, marvel that they had the opportunity to do these firsts and all we are left with is aspiring to do it faster or in other styles. The principal of “Standing on the shoulders of Giants” means that every repeat will be easier, and so sponsorship Dollars more difficult to come buy: why sponsor the 5000th ascent of a mountain? no wonder we see bolts on sacred parts of the world- desperate times...

The mountains hold the history of our changing morals through the scars each generation leaves behind.

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If you aren't willing to solve your own problems, how can you expect others to?

Hi Nic, you didn't say what Snorts comment was? (hence assumptions were made).

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Aha, you were referring to Snorts Blog entry This is what happens to sponsorship money ??

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Climb ZA - Administrator

The community at large thinks a lot of things, mostly nonsensical, often a bit vulgar, but very rarely serious. Girls, beer, you know, deep stuff like that. Having fun. What was your wuestion?

And secondly, no one rarely ever agrees with Snort. Even if you don't try, you could end up disagreeing with him

After reading the story about Lama and the compressor route I have to agree with this chap's comment. "Man, I liked Red Bull. But from here on out, I'll drink my own pee before that stuff."

ja, sorry about the detour nic, kinda hard to stick to serious philosophical debate .....

it's also hard for us to not become completely hypocritical here. sure what the red bull crew did was not cool according to our standards, but think a bit wider: a few rock scars does not have a great impact on anything outside of the climbing world; the damage is mostly cosmetic and raping some of the unspoiltness. now our collective impact on the environment with our western lifestyle is much much much worse - paper consumption (think rainforests), cheap plastic products & packaging (think landfills); cheap clothing (think child labour); general excessive consumption (think carbon emissions; clean water & other finite resources)..... imho a far bigger and more important challenge. but, for the record, i think we should take a firm stand on protecting natural beauty & unspoiltness of mountains & other wild places.

oh shucks, this doesn't have anything to do with sponsorship either

The easy answer is "no".

The long answer is "it's complicated"

In essence, nothing is bad. It is only humankind's exploitative nature that corrupts things. to use a crude example: Is sex bad? No. Is rape bad? without a doubt, YES. what makes it bad? someone decided to exploit someone else for his own gain, however perverted it is.

So: is sponsorship bad? No, but you have to understand what the reason for this sponsorship is. And it varies. A company like Bed Bull's reputation and subsequent client base rest on it's image of being waaaay out there, doing wild things. But frankly, after extreme downhill races, sky diving, base jumping, F1 racing, makeshift human-power driven aeroplane competitions, etc. what's left? They are hitting the ceiling for what they can use to boost their image... fact is, there's not much left. So we go to the big mountains.

Does this whole dabacle have anything to do with Lama's development as climber or his (probably historical) free ascent of the compressor route? No. If they didn't suck in Lama it would be the next impressionable youth. Think about the fame, the glory, the MONEY. And here we have the crux: the love of money erodes all that is good and pure, and this includes the mountains and the innocence of people.

Don't blame sponsorship for this, because sponsorship is not the culprit here. Red Bull is the baddy. Yes, people often tend to forget that, as sponsors and sponsored athletes, they have a responsibility to use this opportunity wisely. But in the same vein people often tend to forget sticking to speed limits, or renewing their tv licence in time, or flushing the toilet. Such is life. The key is to try really hard not to screw things up along the way to our anthropocentric heavens. But, of course, we'll carry on as long as we think everything exists to serve us.

Whats wrong with dweebs?
Your just jealous cause he climbs hard and he climbed Beth!