Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Eish guest? Whats up? You certainly seem to be getting wound up and people are lus to give you a lashing. We have lost the plot here and we are fighting to try and win an argument instead of discussing or debating an issue. Everyone should consider the opposing opinion not just pull out the petrol and see what you can burn down.

So here's my opinion what is in the past is done, I think the only way foward is to learn from it, prevent it from happening again and continuing. Otherwise, the australians (if we can call them that considering their only claim to being australian is that they were born there) must leave and give the land (and the rewards of all their efforts post \"invasion\") back to the aborigines, the americans (same problem) must leave america and return it to the indians, the jews must go back to israel, the bushman must get his land back from the zulus, the xhosa must give the zulus their land back and go north etc etc , it is quite obvious that this is ridiculous and impossible. Many people of many cultures got a raw deal in the past.

Now I, like everyone else in this country, have to pull my finger out and try and achieve, nobody took from anybody else to GIVE me, I have worked to achieve I have not gained any extra advantage from being born in South Africa, If I was born in England my game would be the same.

Guest I know this isnt always the case, and there is an older generation of black south african who was suppressed, but this is not the case with the young generation. Yes apartheid suppressed the multitude and it didnt allow blacks to form part of the first world (not that I particularly agree with the first worlds direction of evolution), but good ol? Van Riebeck didnt arrive here and burn down all the schools and colleges and steal everyones books and mercedes benz'z either.

Their were atrocities here just like in the rest of the world, and people have had to suck it up and continue. The playing field is more or less level
Learn from it, share what you have, play nice and live on

PLease dont select portions of my post to quote from, read it in context

Err, guest... the \"I may be white but I'm also African\" had a winking emoticon next to it. That would be to indicate that the comment was said in a joking fashion. Your rant about the \"I'm African bullshit\" is, therefore, somewhat pointless. Unless you just felt the urge to rant. In which case, go for it. However, I don't admit that I was \"wrong\" by benefiting from the past, because that would imply that I was personally at fault. Yes, my childhood was damn priviledged in comparison to most black kids. I benefited in that way. It was wrong that I benefited but there was not a whole lot that I was going to do about that as a kid. I wasn't one of those 5 year olds that gave their pocket money selflessly to others less fortunate. I didn't have the social awareness to go off and join a liberation movement when I was 13. Or 15. Or 16. Shame on me, then.
Tell you what else - I don't think it does a whole lot of good to anyone to keep on rehashing and rehashing the past. Sure it's important that people don't forget or deny what happened in this country, but there is also a time to move forward and get over it. That's not going to happen by throwing out everyone who took part in the mcsa during apartheid. It's not going to happen by making public or selling all land that was taken (yes, maybe unfairly) during apartheid. That will just create a new set of problems and resentments without doing a hell of a lot to solve the existing ones. And moving forward is certainly not going to happen if we all keep on picking at the issue like a wound that won't heal.
Guest, you obviously have huge issues with the mcsa on every level. (Justified or not - whatever - that's not something I feel the need to get into.) So.... I think it's just possible that you maybe didn't approach this whole issue from an entirely objective point of view. I think that where the mcsa are concerned it doesn't matter much what they say or do, from your perspective they're pretty much \"damned if they do, damned if they don't\". No apology - they're bad. They're ignoring the issue. They're racist. Apology - it's too late. It's insincere. It's forced. Obviously nothing an mcsa member says is going to change your mind in this regard and certainly nothing you say is going to change theirs. Why not just leave it now....

Ahhhh.... 'nuff said.

_________________
All that is gold does not glitter; not all those that wander are lost.

Guest, honestly its time you let go and move on. Whatever the club does or does not do, you will continue to resent them it seems. Instead of asking for answers on this forum, Why not write a formal letter to them, have a few of your friends second it, air your grievances and get a proper personal response from them?

In response to most of your posts I would like to say this: absolutely NO good will come from stirring and not letting go (not meaning forgetting) of the past. Someone suggested things like giving away the land that was \"stolen\".Where will we climb? Where will YOU climb? You dont
solve problems with new problems. Two wrongs do not make a right.Too bad for us in SA we have an unfortunate history that we cannot erase.And its pretty unlikely that one day a light will shine on all of us so that everyone feels the spirit of unity and such and suddenly erase our problems and issues, present and past. But we can and will get better,much better if we all realize past mistakes, learn from them and move on.
Conscious positive decisions and continued effort will get us there.

I can not be held responsible because I was a toddler benefitting/not benifitting from apartheid and neither can you and neither can anyone's children 50 years from now (thanks mowhawk).I feel truly sorry for those people discriminated against during apartheid and I feel sorry that an \"educated\" people managed to enforce such laws that we look back on now and think WTF? But I do not and will not feel GUILTY for something I have had no control over and did not consciously partake in. Apartheid was a truly bad thing that happened and no-one can argue that. But it's over now. I'm moving on. Let's all move on.

If anything, this thread might have made a few people in the club sit up and realize that the members/non members out there are aware of what theyre doing or not doing and maybe this will make them take action for
the better of all of us who love the mountains.

I was under the impression that climbers, at least in my experience, are colour blind. Lets keep it that way.

Bron, et al, I wouldnt bother paying any attention to Guest and his rantings. He obviously loves disagreeing with people and causing a stir to get a reaction. If you look at his other posts there is a pattern of agressive antagonism going on, lets just leave him in his private nightmare!

To the MCSA, well done on (finally) taking the steps of admitting fault in your past actions. Clean the slate and move forward in a progressive manner.

F|_444444MMMM33333 W4RZ

Christ, MCSA should never have apologised, then fagl0rZ like guest wouldn't be making ridiculous posts on this forum. Can't be bothered to read *all* the posts, but if guest is white, he is definitely an ex-hippeh-humanities student.

Guest, I think it was Voltaire who said: \"STFU\"

\"*complain* apartheid *complain*\"

/care

/me slaps guest around a bit with a quickdraw

do you hope to make her to see you fool?
do you hope to pluck this dusky jewel?

Guest on one of hs nights out:
http://ruthlessreviews.com/pics4/bm/bm11.jpg

_________________
Blair, keep your England, and let me have MY Zimbabwe.

Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Erm... My signature is a rather famous quote of Mugabe's. It would appear that you are the one who knows dick all about current issues, and probably why your lame complaint about the MCSA is so misguided. If you really wanna be a martyr for africa, why don't you go help some Nigerians dying of avian flu.

If complaints are to be made against MCSA, they shouldn't even be coming from some white crusader, but from someone who was personally denied the opportunity to enjoy the mountains. Personally, I don't think there are many people of colour that give a rat's ass about the MCSA's behaviour in the past.

P13cE 0u7 |\\/|07h3rf|_|ck3r

Are you evol? Do you think there are any skinheadz that aren't gay?

_________________
Blair, keep your England, and let me have MY Zimbabwe.

Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Ah folks what are you still doing replying to this guy. He is a 12 year old troll.

Have no idea why anyone is still replying to this guy. Move on.
This forum is starting to resemble some low life saga that belongs on Jerry Springer!!

The answer to guest's question.... nothing much. What are we to do? any special, aimed effort/program is just more of an insult. I would not want any sort of special effort directed at me & thus I suspect that nor would anyone else. What does MCSA really have to offer anyone.? As an indevidule all I can offer is friendship & an open door.