Hi guys, regarding Ice Climbing,does it work in the same manner as Trad Climbing, with the leader climbing and placing Ice screws and setting up a belay stance with the climber following, then removing all the gear?
Any info would be much appreciated!

Cheers.

_________________
To the good life!

Mario, the answer is yes. If you are interested in ice climbing the take a look at http://neice.com/. Now (Jan-Feb-Mar) is the ice climbing season in (most of) N-America and there is lots on this site to drool about and an active and very informative forum.

Take a look at the MCSA web site photo page at http://mcsa.org.za/cpg/ to see what the ice in S-Africa looks like (look under meets). You'll see that most of the guys top-rope ice as there are relatively few moderate-hard ice leaders based here.

As far as getting on real ice goes you'll want to go the 'Berg in July (e.g. Makaza, Sani Pass). I see that GavinR from the MCSA KZN section is organising a National ice climbing meet in July so it may be something to investigate. The MCSA JHB section also has a number of active ice climbers and has regular official and unofficial meets in the 'Berg and Lesotho (Oxbow, Bokhong).

Hi Gadget,thank you very much for all the info, really helpfull! I have a friend who has climbed in the Berg and I saw the pics! All Top roped Climbs but still amazing! We don't really have 200m frozen Waterfalls in SA which would be AWESOME! Go to Black Diamond's Website!! There is footage of a Climber dry tooling Misashi! The world's hardest dry tool route!
Makes your palms sweat it's very impressive!
Thanx again!

_________________
To the good life!

I saw on some of the pics that there are bolted routes with chains on them! Do they ab down and chip the ice away before they climb or does one do that on your way up? I reckon they might freeze over! It was on a mixed climbing route ie. half rock half ice!
I know the gear is also very expensive! Are there any places where you could go on a guided climb where they provide you with gear?

Can i contact the JHB section of the MCSA for that info?

Thanx.

_________________
To the good life!

The bolts you see in pics are most likely on mixed routes. These bolts are either placed in summer, or they are on rock that gets no ice. Basically with pure ice climbing the grading goes from WI (water ice) 1 through to WI6, and the grade is dependant on steepness and, above about WI4, on the quality (thickness) of the ice. So a WI6 will be a thin smear of ice over rock, or a very tenuous icicle where screws will not go in very deep. There have been a few WI7's, which I guess would be the equivalent of aiding A5. Mixed climbing is another kettle of fish, with M grades indicating the difficulting. Top end mixed climbing these days is about M13/14. So a route could get a grade something like M8, WI5. Mixed climbing is a fairly new sport and the ethical boundaries are still being explored. Top end mixed climbs usually go through massive caves, and often involve alot of loose rock. There is a debate about the distinction between cleaning a line for a mixed send, and actually manufacturing a route. Often there isnt too much difference. Also, some climbers refuse to use heel spurs, as they reckon its not ethical. Many of the hard mixed climbs have been given two grades - one for with heel spurs and another for without. Mixed climbing is a pretty unique offspring of climbing, taking features of aiding, bouldering, sport and trad and rolling them into a pretty exciting new sport. It'll be interesting to see where it goes in the next few years.

Hector,thank you so much for your reply! That basically answered all my questions in one go! I am very interrested in seeing how this style of Climbing will develope! I also read that there is a big debate on whether the Climbers are allowed to use slings on their axes or not! The footage of Will Gadd climbing Musashi, he does it without using slings! So if you drop an axe you 've got a bit of a problem! I don't think one could complete one of those climbs with only one axe!

How does the grading work in Competitions then where they manufacture an Ice Wall or do they immitate the outdoor conditions to the tee?

Cheers

_________________
To the good life!

I dont think there's too much debate these days about climbing leashless. The consensus seems to be that leashes are out. They're a massive restriction and prevent you from swopping tools (on traverses) or from using your tools in imaginative placements (such as hanging a leg over a tool). Its also a real mission to clip if you have a leash on. Dedicated leashless tools are designed so that you hold the axe in a very comfy position. As for dropping the tools, if its some steep mixed climb, chances are its bolted and a single pitch. I.e. pretty much like a sport climb. If you drop a tool you lower to the ground, pull your rope and try again. Check out http://climbing.com/news/hotflashes/Illuminati/%20to%20see%20a%20more%20impressive%20type%20of%20route.%20Multi-pitch%20hard%20mixed%20routes%20are%20much%20more%20committing%20and%20the%20consequences%20of%20a%20dropped%20tool%20could%20be%20very%20serious.%20Guys%20are%20even%20climbing%20leashless%20on%20some%20of%20the%20difficult%20Himilayan%20routes,%20when%20trying%20an%20alpine%20style%20ascent.%20Basically%20if%20you%20drop%20a%20tool%20you%20abandon%20the%20route.%20But%20if%20you're%20concious%20of%20not%20dropping%20tools,%20chances%20are%20you%20wont%20(unless%20you%20get%20hit%20on%20the%20head%20by%20a%20big%20boulder!).

There are also devices that clip your axe directly to your glove - allowing a quick release for when you need a free hand, but keeping your axe lekker vas to your grubby mitt to prevent dropping it when swinging. (Petzl's catalogues / website should show these)

While I fully respect, and offer big kudos to, the hardcore guys who go leashless, I really do think it's just a case of showing who's got higher testosterone levels, rather than making climbing sense. Kinda like attempting the second ascent of Mary Poppins with one-size-too-big-lace-up's.... with the laces removed! Just to prove you can.



My 2cents..... use it or lose it (kinda like your axe, I guess)

No ways dude. There's no ways the guys would be able to climb M13/14 with leashes. Its way easier without. If you dont have leashes you can use the shaft of the tool as well. Theres even a sneaky hands free rest where you torque the tool under an overhang and hang with both legs off the shaft. You'd battle to do that with leashes. Also on traverses you need to be able to swop tools from hand to hand. Its not a question of wanting to look hardcore - it really helps not to have leashes. Obviously you've got to use the right tool. One with a straight shaft is no good, cos you gotta grip it all the time. A true leashless tool has a nice hook at the bottom for your hand, so its like holding a massive jug.

Hey Mario, I agree with Jono about leashless being a bit of an ego thing. The big advatntage to leashes (Besides dropping the tools) is that it allows for resting.

Climbing leashless can be very pumpy on the forearms (I haven't tried leashless yet). A lot of climbers prefer leashless climbing though because of the flexability it offers. The process of leading with leashes is you get to secure axe placements you then drape the leash over the tool to easily release your wrist. (The axe remains hanging free in the ice). you get a screw place it in, hang quick draw and rope. You then put you hand back through the leash and carry on climbing.

The jhb section of the mcsa is http://jhb.mcsa.org.za contact Uschi between 8-10am if you are interested in Joining you could easily join by June/July. The MCSA has a set of about 8 black diamond Ice Tools and Crampons for its members and Lofty usualy holds a beginners meet either at Giants Castle (Great Climbing ... HARD hike). Or at Oxbow Lesotho (5 min walk to ice).

Hector ... I heard some interesting stories of you and lofty doing a multi pitch boozed in the middle of the night. Care to share ?

Yo Hector! Can see the point (and thrill) of going leashless on single pitch \"sport\" mixed routes, but eish... on big multipitch, or apline-style mountain routes - that, to me, is really like climbing to prove who's got the bigger balls (and in a way, who's prepared to abandon a dream, for a silly drop), and not climbing for climbing's sake.

I searched on Petzl's website, and browsed through their catalogue, but couldn't find the quick release system that attaches the ice axe directly to a specialized glove (not a leash as such), I had mentioned in my earlier post. Perhaps it's not a Petzl tool. Where-ever I saw it though, and whatever make it is, it made a lot of sense to me. The search goes on.

Gonzo,thanx for the beta bro! I am moving up to Jhb soon so i shall definitely contact Uschi as soon as i get up there!

Cheers to the good life!

_________________
To the good life!

Hawu Mario!!!??? What kind my bru'? Why now you move to Jozi ek se'??

Well, if that's the case, definitely hook up with Lofty (Gareth Frost) at the Jhb section. He be da champ.... organised my first ice climb with him - at Giant's Castle. I think they still meet every Wed at the Waverly Girl Guide Hall ...... but sorry for you bru', the girl guides have all gone home by that time!! hahaha

Ja bru,life sure has strange twists and turns! I'll probably do most of my climbing at Boven,Harrismith and of course my Hangboard(get uber strong right there in my lounge!) One arm pull ups and the like!
Isn't our other friend Garth up there somewhere?

_________________
To the good life!

Jono and Gonzo, I still disagree about leashless being an ego thing. I really think that some routes would be impossible without going leashless. Climbing is always going to be about pushing harder and harder routes. And if leashless makes M14 possible at low altitude, why shouldnt it be used in the big mountains. I heard a story once about Dean Potter climbing some new route in Patagonia. He went solo and had to climb before it got light, because the ice smear he was on melts during the day. Now I dont know if he was leashless or not, but the principle is the same. Traditional tactics simply would not have worked. Of course, I'm talking very theoretical here cos I've never climbed leashless (let the insults begin!) and I havent done very much ice climbing in general. But to me it seems like the whole progression in all types of climbing is towards freedom and speed.
Gonzo, as for our midnight drunken adventure - it was very foolish and nowhere near as bad as it might sound. It was probably WI3 and Lofty led (theres no ways I was gonna lead!). The worst part was when we got the car stuck in a muddy ditch, on got completely covered in mud trying to get it out. I took a fall on the walk in and went somersaulting down a grass slope, but the actual route was uneventful. I dont think we did too much the next day though

Is it possible for a route to be downgraded if you use a leash?

_________________
To the good life!

Hey Hector. I can't really argue that much about the leashless thing. I haven't considered or ever tried mixed climbing especially at the grades you are talking about, thinking about it now I can see how climbing with leashes could restrict you.

I know that lofty enjoys climbing leashless on normal non-mixed ice, I suppose I will have to give it a bash next time and see for myself. I've only led on ice twice, once at Makaza a WI3'ish (I shat myself lofty was belaying and I think he was shitting himself too for me But what a great feeling once I finished it. And once probably around a WI2 on the side of the main fall at Bokong.

How did you find climbing at night ? Was the ice super hard ? What about the lighting does the ice reflect at night from the headlamps ?

Climbing at night was a pretty surreal experience. As far as I remember, the ice wasnt super hard, but the route we were on was one of the softer ones - it picked up a fair amaount of afternoon sun. Any kind of night climbing is an experience though. Its very cocoonish, but you feel way exposed at the same time.