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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:07 am 
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Hann wrote:


I refer to my post and link above.
It has become more than only illegal bolting activities.
It has become protection of clients and the integrity of the professional guiding accreditation too.

Even the level of his expired guiding accreditation (for single-pitch environments only) is in question.

I still suggest that one of the registered guides should report Matt to the provincial registrar at the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:47 am 
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Real Name: Grant Marinus
Marshall, the reality is that his credibility in the climbing community, lost and laughable at this time, is unlikely to be restored unless he takes responsibility for what was clearly an ill conceived act which he has sought to justify in an unconvincing and contrived manner.

He should take advice from persons competent to give it; your recent post, regrettably, is not going to assist him and given your own “lack of interest” and respect for the subject you are clearly not the right person he should listen to either.

Sunny & bright may be a part of his future on some other front, but as a credible climbing “activist” or “reformer” (which is apparently his agenda) or guide not at all – that sun, I am afraid, looks to have set permanently.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:05 am 
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Real Name: Lukas Malan
Marshall, stop trolling.

Rather send my friends in Bloem the Kompasberg RD's they requested from you two years ago... :mrgreen:

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"I have no more friends, and my nuts are too small!"


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:56 am 
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Real Name: Myburgh van Zijl
Dankie Lukas.
Marshall, stop trolling.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:27 pm 
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Jeez can we move on again. This has become a Matt hater blogspot. And the tone of some of the posters is like some sort of ruling elite, each writing to affirm a dominance on this little forum. Yes Matt made a bad mistake, probably realises it but rather than throttling him, lets give him the space to apologise (best done in communication with the MCSA, not on this forum). No legal action or letter bombs necessary. Matt is a good guy, we just need to stop alienating him, why dont one of the lofty old 'guardians' meet over a beer with him rather than grandstanding on this forum. Andrew


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:47 pm 
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You are right Andrew, we should move one.

However:
Think of the possibility here.

What would the media coverage be if a paying American tourist got injured?
Rhetorical, naturally as the bolts are gone.

1) Illegal Bolts.
2) Badly placed bolts.
3) Badly drilled bolts.
4) Guide with insufficient accreditation.
5) Guide with expired accreditation.

With the 5 points above in mind:
What impact could such media coverage hold for climbers/guides in general?
What legal action could be taken against a climber/guide if a client died on said route?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:53 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
GBM; are you not taking it one touch too seriously? Its only climbing. Misdeed or not, who are you/we to judge Matt's whole life? Who are you to say "that sun looks to have set permanently".

gollum, Distribution of route info is purely for fun(in my case). Not a duty I'm obliged to perform, nor a business. That RD was infact printed out & given into said friend from Bloem. So I have time to troll...

Hann, "Any way one can "Unsubscribe" from Marshall's posts?" = Closed minded.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:13 pm 
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Baby steps people, Matt has now acknowledged that he needs permission to bolt. It is good that he has learnt this the next step is to learn how to handle your request being declined, the appeal process and that subsequent dissapointment.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:19 pm 
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Real Name: Garvin Jacobs
Lets compare this to 1996 Everest disaster. Yes, there is no comparison is there, that was really big, really bad publicity for SA Climbing. But does anyone care about that now. Do people even know about it. This to will pass.
The entire climbing community can't be best friends. Don't try to turn the man/boy into what you think he should be. Let him be and he can come to terms with things in his own time, as we all did.

Garvin


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:30 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
I have to agree with my fellow troll, Garvin.

...this will pass & join all the other forgotten memmories.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:52 pm 
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Agreed with both Garvin and Marshall.

Pass it will.

The sea level will rise, humans will become extinct, the sun will nova and the expanding universe will collapse on itself rendering this topic and all human endeavours ultimately pointless.

But until such time we need kill a couple of hours.

What better way than to argue online.....




And memories, Marshall, has only one M.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:23 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
Hann. "And memories, Marshall, has only one M"

So what...

you are the b**** who won all the spelling bees at school. Get a life. There are bigger things.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:53 pm 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
The reason that things matter at all is because we have intelligence. Otherwise nothing matters.

Nothing is really important if we have no thought but everything is if we do.

If it were any different we would be subject to mere chance as all other animals are.

Our very civilization is based on forming mores and rules by which we must abide. These rules and mores may be alienating and objectionable to some but when they are not adhered to civil society breaks down and our lives are the worse for it as anarchy sets in.

We have codes or rules written and unwritten that makes things work. These codes have to be reviewed and modifications and improvements are needed from time to time. Occasionally a radical change has to take place.

South Africans must be the most progressive rule breakers and changers in the modern era. Our society is awash with rule breakers, corruption, crazy aggressive motorists and so on. But we also somehow keep civil society going. It is indeed a fine balance.

Our very existence as a civilized community is at stake if we dare to think that breaking an esoteric rule that is arguably inconsistent is justifiable by juxtaposing it against other rules in other contexts or against what has happened in the past.

There are parts of South African "civilization" that are still unbelievably well preserved and include our natural parks. Other than some uncontrollable poaching of rhino horns we really do have world class wild natural areas. It behooves us to do everything in our power to preserve this.

We also have a proud tradition of world class trad climbing on TM and elsewhere.The rules governing this tradition and the areas where it is practised are widely understood and accepted. It is important! It matters equally to preserve it too. To do any less would seriously question our intelligence and we would be hard pressed to consider ourselves civilized.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:06 pm 
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Real Name: Jacques Breitenbach
WOW!! now I'm getting aheadache!!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Jaques take a brufen


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:14 pm 
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Real Name: Garvin Jacobs
I'm sorry Derek. I now have to side with snort, anyone who can use mores, juxtapose and behoove in one post must be correct.
But let me get this straight (is that spelt OK) are we now discussing the rite to flame as a punishment for deviating for mores (learnt a new word and forced it into a sentence) or are we still on illegal bolts?

Jaques I usually have 2x 200mg it's easier to swallow.
Garvin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:18 am 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
My post about mores and rules was directed at you Garvin. Everest does matter especially to those guys who went there. I know three of them very well. It brought out the worst in some people and even killed somebody.

Everest is not comparable at all to what this is about. It is a completely different game.

If you summit Everest you are a winner. You can book yourself a career of writing books and motivational speaking that will be a good return on your investment in time and money. If you don't succeed then nobody cares and it would cost you about 6 months of your life and $60,000.00+ or around R500,000.00 or more.

There are no rules on Everest - everyone is for themselves. If you drop your torch or it does not work as you set off from your high camp you get left behind. I know that has happened. Oxygen, pre-placed, fixed lines, sherpas carrying all your stuff etc etc anything goes. Summiting is all that matters. If you get pulmonary oedema at 8,000m, anyone that tries to get you down risks their own life and you will die!

The point is that if summiting Everest is so important and failing is so un-important, then 2 bolts placed or chopped on TM is just as important and more so.

I think it is an imperative that anyone that climbs in any form should read Mcfarlanes book: Mountains of the Mind.

It is only our intellect that compels us to climb, and that makes it important. There is by an large no other rational reason.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2003/de ... ngholidays


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:25 am 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Extract from the book:
Quote:
In his Voyages dans les Alpes , the pioneering 18th-century geologist Horace-Bénédict de Saussure wrote briefly about the chamois hunters of the Alps, men who pursued a notoriously perilous profession. The hunters were menaced by crevasses on the glaciers over which they chased their quarry, they faced death by falling from the steep slopes the chamois preferred, and death by exposure from the Alpine storms which could gather so quickly. And yet, de Saussure had written:

"It is these very dangers, this alternation of hope and fear, the continual agitation kept alive by these sensations in his heart, which excite the huntsman, just as they animate the gambler, the warrior, the sailor and, even to a certain point, the naturalist among the Alps whose life resembles closely, in some respects, that of the chamois hunter."

When I read this passage, it made absolute sense to me, despite the intervening centuries. As de Saussure said, risk-taking brings with it its own reward: it keeps a "continual agitation alive" in the heart. Hope, fear. Hope, fear - this is the fundamental rhythm of mountaineering. Life, it frequently seems in the mountains, is more intensely lived the closer one gets to its extinction: we never feel so alive as when we have nearly died.

Of course the significant difference between de Saussure's chamois hunter and me was that for the hunter, risk wasn't optional - it came with the job. I sought risk out, however. I courted it. In fact, I paid for it. This is the great shift which has taken place in the history of risk. Risk has always been taken, but for a long time it was taken with some ulterior purpose in mind: scientific advancement, personal glory, financial gain. About two-and-a-half centuries ago, however, fear started to become fashionable for its own sake. Risk, it was realised, brought its own reward: the sense of physical exhilaration and elation which we would now attribute to the effects of adrenaline. And so risk-taking - the deliberate inducement of fear - became desirable: became a commodity.


It is the very last sentence that is important and that pertains to TM. It is that level of risk taking that is so particular to TM climbing that is important and must be preserved. There are lots of facets and levels of risk in climbing - TM has it's own particular brand. It must not be messed with.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:00 am 
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garvinj wrote:
Don't try to turn the man/boy into what you think he should be. Let him be and he can come to terms with things in his own time, as we all did.


Garvin,

This "guiding-accreditation" and "illegal bolting",
This cannot be compared to a teenager having a hairstyle his dad does not approve of, or a cd collection his mother finds offensive.

This should actually be compared to one brat poisoning the well from which everybody drinks.

Thus we cannot simply 'let him be'.
Lessons are to be learned here, and until Matt has admitted and apologized I don't see this issue going to rest.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:11 am 
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Real Name: Garvin Jacobs
THE BOLTS HAVE BEEN CHOPPED. A reputation and some rock has been scared. The damage is done, but it seems like some want the guy to morn his misdeeds on the ash heap in sackcloth. He is not repenting and there's not much you can do about it. It's like that route at boven called "The harder you push the harder it gets"

As for the illegality of his actions, we will just have to keep an eye out for what he's up to. His sponsors and friends would be the best for that job. Remember they say Keep friend close and enemies closer or something like that.
Then there's take a horse to water...

1996 is not comparable, correct and that was the point. It is so much bigger and yet it is forgotten. Not by those involved I'm sure but to the public and even the climbing community. Sorry maybe that was a bad reference.
Snort one of those close friends explained your need to invite and experience fair. So he advised me against going climbing with you. I've never been as sore and broken as when I've been closes to dying.

How do you marry the idea of primal fear, at the route of our need for this climbing experience and mores and rules. When that fear is in its essence routed in our barbaric past. Civilisation has always tried to subdue the fear factor. Or am I missing the plot.

Garvin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:05 pm 
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Garvin,

I think that may just be the plot, precisely.
We live in a society that has rules and mores, if you’re angry or looking for thrills.
You can’t rip the head of your neighbour or drive freakishly fast dodging pedestrians.
But, you’re always welcome to warrior in the mountains.

That might be what attracted Matt to climbing, and the same reason he doesn’t want to say sorry.
It’s a rebellious past-time, full of odd people.

Charles is angry cause he broke the warriors code.
He placed a weapon that is not allowed on that battle ground,
And bolted another man’s route, his legacy.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Real Name: Jacques Breitenbach
Wow!! My headaches gone, but it took 4 brufens.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Real Name: Franz Fuls
I missed all the action while out climbing in the cape! :lol:

Firstly, yeah, in my opinion the original bolting could have been approached better with permissions etc,
BUT:
i. Slander will not solve any problems. It actually creates new ones. Guys, may I suggest we think before we just post ??
ii. Rather than a Crusade, may I suggest in future we find more constructive ways to deal with issues? I am sure Matt did not do it to just to piss people off (there are cheaper ways to achieve suchh a goal).
iii. I know ignorance is no excuse, but maybe if a way can be found to inform potential bolters about the 'right' and 'wrong' way then we could get more positive results. Then there is no excuse.
iv. Lets encourage and support those who make an effort to grow the sport (we do want to grow the sport, don't we???)
v. Instead of reactive action, I suggest that those who vehemently oppose to become involved in find a a constructive way to encourage 'responsible bolting' and in doing so boost the reputation of the sport. Crucifying an icon of our game is bad for our image. If you feel so strongly about it, why not mentor the youth in what you deem to be good behaviour.

Matt:
I respect the effort you put into bolting and growing the sport, and yeah, sometimes reality and the desired outcome is a major mismatch. That's life, and has happened to all of us. Let it roll like water off a duck's back. This whole discussion has taught me a lot, and I believe you to be the bigger man also take some learnings from it. I sincerely pray that we are not the only ones.
We do stuff. Some works, some doesn't. Then we learn. Then we grow. Then we do it better!
Dont give up dude!

For our dear Cape climbers:
If you ever want to witness real environmental destruction, please take a visit to the Mpumalanga Highveld and witness the coal power stations and coal mines supplying the majority of SA with power... Things could be a lot worse in the Cape. Count your blessings.

Peace to all mankind, and prosperity for nature!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:52 am 
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Real Name: Dirk Talma
Franz, such wisdom. I miss our talks around the fire. Tjoppie in one hand and punch in the other.

Best report on this funny and sometimes ridiculous thread I've read so far


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:39 am 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Dear Franz, man of Wisdom.

Your noble utterances of how and what should be done are indeed inspiring if one could but implement them in the way you propose. However, the issue is not dissimilar to a large property developer wanting to build another new golf course estate along the garden route that will create jobs, give people access to the wonders of the place blah blah blah. And then there is a group of die-hards that are bent on preserving a seemingly insignificant butterfly species. Go google the saga of the Brenton Blue.

Only 4 people at a time are allowed to see the creature and only a few days of the year.

http://www.sa-venues.com/things-to-do/g ... y-reserve/

The Brenton Blue is considered a national treasure. And yet 99.99999999999999999% or so of the people in the world will never see it. And almost as many won't know about it.

There are many climbers that consider the climbing style at the ledge as a national climbing treasure too. And a lot more people in the world know that than know about the Butterfly. Ethics and bolting and climbing style has been discussed endlessly on this site about places like the Ledge, The Cederberg Yellowwood etc. Matt is not a child, he is a mature adult. He has been spoken too by several people including me and he "fundamentally" believes what he is doing is "right". And everyone else is wrong.

The icon of our game that is being "crucified" is the climbing style at the Ledge. To elevate Matt or anyone to icon status is maybe the problem.

As far as I know his attitude has not changed.

You should have read he has a single pitch guiding license (that seems to have expired). The only way he can guide people up Arrow is by making the whole route into a 90m single top rope pitch. It does not take a rocket scientist work out why he is doing it. It really has got nothing to do with style, or ethics and even climbing really.

So by all means go fix the problem. Have a chat to Matt.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:31 am 
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Real Name: Franz Fuls
Dear Snort,

I am probably as green as they come, and understand the impact of humans on nature.
I suggest you read my original post again. I have not given any opinion about whether the action was justified. I have an opinion on that, but I feel that the right or wrong of the action is not the core issue.

I suggest we focus on finding constructive outcomes rather than dissing each other. That way we all walk out feeling better, and our game's reputation gets a boost. Consider that this site gets international exposure, and we are currently painting a picture of a incohesive vindictive bitter bunch for the rest of the world. If I have to make a decision about climbing the cape based on the vibes on this post, I would rather climb elsewhere where I can find good vibes in addition to good crags. (Fortunately I know that this is not the case, but does the international tourist know this?)

Also please consider that the Cape and Table Mountain is not the only area in South Africa that is environmentally sensitive. Have a look at the bigger picture and go see for yourself what real destruction looks like.
http://ipsnews.net/africa/nota.asp?idnews=39470

This is my last post on the subject.
Lets be positive!


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