Hi guys.
There's a project up at my home crag and I've just been amazed at how many people have no idea what the tat on the first bolt is there for. These are folks who rock up at the crag, fully kitted and climb up to grade 22. So they're not fully beginners any longer, but they have no interest in "how things work", norms, tradition or what ever you like to call it.

So my question is how do we stop people for climbing our projects, if they haven't bothered to get to know the lay of the land before going of climbing on their own.

Yes I don't climb hard enough to automatically exclude the chance of this happening. Easy routes do need to be bolted and sometimes you just don't get to open stuff for some time.

Mentors, a topic that has come up before. Not worth discussing again. Could someone please add a link to that.

How about a FAQ (frequently asked questions) page on this site? People can add questions that they have been asked and some answers and or opinions.
Garvin

I usually leave the first two bolts hangerless. Works wonders.
When attempting the FA just make sure you pack in a few nuts from your rack to slip over the washer/nut (leave that in place) on the bolt.

Doesn't solve the ethics problem, but keeps your project safe

So what is the Etiquette with regards to projects? If there is tat on the lower bolts, it is a project? And no one else is allowed to climb it? And how long do you get to project that route?

Surely you can share the route with the community once it is bolted, esp if it a lower grade, which no one really cares about the FA, and you can still project it?

Just some thoughts. If I am totally wrong Im sure you will let me know.

...just to let you know, I'm letting you know.

If there's a piece of string on the first bolt, or a piece of tape, or it says "IP" at the bottom in chalk, or the first hanger or two are removed - those are all signs that the route is not open yet. Climb it if there are none of these because there are different conventions around the world for marking a project.

Bolter gets to do the FA, unless it's been standing for like a year. Then it is still good manners to ask, I reckon most bolters will let you have a project too hard for them if you ask. And you'll make a friend instead of "oh you're the doos who stole my project".

Cleaning cracks, removing grass, clearing loose rock, chopping stuff at the base, building paths, blah blah blah... it's hard work man. Don't steal a project, you'll piss off the dudes who put up routes for you to climb.

Oh!! That reminds me! I yanked the tat off the far left route at Worlds Apart (it's been there for years!)

_________________
Climb ZA - Administrator

Perfect response Wes.
Now tell us how long have you been climbing and when it is you lost your respect for your fellow climber, who put in a lot of time, effort and money to bolt something and you want to take away the little bit of recognition that he may get if such a route where ever to be recorded in a guide.

It is the way it's always been and yes change is inevitable, but its not always for the better. Some things are just good the way they are.

Sharing is a noble selfless thing correct? Well so is respecting someone else's wishes. But I was mostly referring to the fact that there are so many guys out there who have no clue as to what things are. For example while walking a long path to the crag some says: its strange that people would come out here and stack these stones here.I don't think he would have found the crag if someone wasn't with him and yet with the beacons it is real easy to get to it. There is a lot more to climbing than clipping those bolts that someone else graciously placed there for you.

Garvin
PS I care about first assents!!

So what is the Etiquette with regards to projects? If there is tat on the lower bolts, it is a project? And no one else is allowed to climb it? And how long do you get to project that route?

Surely you can share the route with the community once it is bolted, esp if it a lower grade, which no one really cares about the FA, and you can still project it?

Just some thoughts. If I am totally wrong Im sure you will let me know.



So you can tell everyone that the route should have been there first?

garvinj, for sure if someone has put in the huge effort required into bolting a route, I agree that he should be able to project it and go for the FA.

I am just asking these questions because I have been climbing for over a year and was not aware of bolting/projecting etiquette. It doesnt seem to be documented anywhere and no older climber has explained it to me.

Thanks for your response and for taking the time to bolt new routes.

Nope, a year is not long enough. What happens if you get injured (snap two tendons in a finger) or any number of other events occur.
People just need to respect the work and time other people have invested, it's that simple.
If they are so desperate for a route, go spend the R300 on bolts, hangers and drill bits, hire out a drill for a day (R100), toprope, clean, then bolt (and climb) your friggen route.

I thought those ropes were gift wrap bows.

If you haven't worked a project for a year...it doesn't matter that much...give it to someone who needs/deserves it.

I bolted something in 2008 and have since never been strong enough or as Stu said had some injuries. I've not neglected it Just waiting for things to line up. So now it seems like the Project may go, but there's no guarantee I don't hurt something and have to ease of for a while again.

Wes, the oldies are a hard bunch, but if you stroke there ego a little, they'll give up the info. You should also just ask. All these big names and hard men are mostly pretty decent people. The trouble comes when we put them on pedestal. Some time one creates a divide that only exists in your head.

Hey Justin what do you think about that page FAQ page?
Garvin

A chalk IP or piece of tat on the first bolt should be enough of a sign for "old and forgotten" projects. All of the new climbers I've taken out, have been curious and asked what it means, but I guess you could find that new climbers don't always have the guidance of the more experienced to go on.

I know it sounds a little silly, but why not leave a note/business card with a number or email address on the first draw or dangling from the tat on a project that you are actively working? I know some FA'ers who do this. That way, you can also get an indication of how important the project is to the bolter and someone else can try the project before the bolts rust

_________________
...Chalk is cheap...

I heard about one of the british hotshots once padlocking a saucepan lid over the first hanger of his project at one of the yorkshire crags when he heard Jibe Tribout was making a visit. You could make it obvious that way

What I was trying to get at was that it would be good if there was a database one could get at, to learn and or understand the the stuff that sometime seems a little strange as they happen around us. I think, because some things are supposed to be common knowledge people feel there is no need to mention it. Because you should know. But of course one can only know if you've been told or if you have some way of easily getting the info.

Garvin
ps heard that saucepan story also. But can you imagine what my wife would do to me.

Yeah Justin, +1 on the FAQ.

Garvin...have you honestly never jumped on any of my tatted projects? Not even once?

Tell the truth, shame the devil.

And I thought the IP was someone saving the route just for me. After all, why else would they put my initials on the route?

Hey Derek
There was that one time at the buffalo when you said I could open that route. Then you changed your mind, when I had just clipped the last bolt before the anchors and I had to ask my belay to take the rope tight. That was a real ass-hole thing to do but we live and we learn.

Oh then I opened that other route just as a personal F#$%k you. I only ever told Rachel Hogg what route that was. But hey we're past those troubled days and who really cares about first ascents anyway.

Garvin

Derek

You wanted the truth, hope its not to much to handle. I've just put new tires on my bike I could meet you in Port Alfred if you like to tell me in person how hot it will be in my sector of hell.

Garvin

nownow, lets all relaaaaaax

I guess the main culprit are the guys who build skill in the climbing gyms, and then charge to natural rock with some level of ignorance.
May I suggest that the climbing gym owners put up a big notice, explaining crag ethics to their members / visitors in a diplomatic way??

A little goes a long way

Garvin...what about Viera's route at FF?

You can't squeal when others do unto you as you have done to them.

"when it is you lost your respect for your fellow climber"?

I've climbed on and never red-pointed with Viera's permission. You're trying to get me in trouble but Viera and I thick as thieves. We're even going to Spain together this year. But it would be good to Know who took the tat of her route. So will we see you in Spain then. Maybe we can steel some projects there.

@Franz. We are relaxed. I wouldn't do anything to Derek, he's such a delicate vulnerable person. I just want to hold him every time I see him. But mostly I'm scared of his mother.

Good idea

_________________
Climb ZA - Administrator

projects should always be respected, end of story, and the only people that think a fa is not important are those with out the vision to achieve their own!
big up to all the bolters out there!

Garvin your project at FF has moved to my fair game list...I can handle it!

For interests sake... 'Stealin' (22) at Uriah Heap, in Montagu got its name after it was left alone. Greg (who may have gotten injured after bolting the route!?) did eventually send it and name it (appropriately

_________________
Climb ZA - Administrator

Garvin's project will be called Fair Game.

Like it

_________________
Climb ZA - Administrator