Quantcast
It is currently Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:54 pm

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:38 pm
Posts: 333
On a serious note, I saw a young climber with a wire brush the other day, not to clean a new route but in his chalk-bag instead of a toothbrush. On the same weekend I saw the letters IP scratched into the rock at the base of a climb. Please please NEVER us a wire brush, they destroy our rock. And please please never scratch names whatever into the rock face, if you need to write IP, use chalk.

Andrew


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:42 pm
Posts: 122
Ha ha that's priceless andrew. So drilling into the rock and inserting steel does less damage?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:55 am
Posts: 275
Location: Pretoria
Real Name: Brian Weaver
Perhaps from a practical aspect drilling does cause damage, but that damage is done in a controlled manner for a specific purpose that cannot be done by other means. When someone scratches IP 50cm x 40cm in the rock at the base of the climb, that is graffiti. The little picture of a house scratched in next to the IP is also that big.

Wire brushes damage the rock and the holds. If your toothbrush isn't sufficient, some water helps. NOTE: don't pour water onto holds and then expect to be able to climb the route in the next few minutes or possibly hours. If you're going to do this, ensure no one else is planning on climbing right after you. Rubbing alcohol also can help to break down chalk build up, but same thing applies to it.

_________________
I hate this real world place... I'd be more than happy to live out there rather...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:57 am
Posts: 376
Location: CT
Real Name: Paul P
oubaas wrote:
Ha ha that's priceless andrew. So drilling into the rock and inserting steel does less damage?

Troll. Back under your rock, there you go.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:10 pm
Posts: 141
Location: Durban, South Africa
Real Name: Scott Sinclair
proze wrote:
Troll. Back under your rock, there you go.

Correction - Trolls live under bridges, in caves etc. They're quite large and often battle to fit beneath rocks..

_________________
At the chaaaaains boet!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:33 pm
Posts: 14
Real Name: Christian F Gerhardt
Jaaaa the atitudes I see will keep us away from Redhill and Blackhill for a loooooooooong time. We need to take ownership of our actions or else SANPARKS will give us more stick even though we mean well. So boulder with responsibilty.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
Att. Climbing Gym Owners:
Please help educate the young emerging climbers on issues like these. Your notice board can be a powerful tool!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:33 pm
Posts: 14
Real Name: Christian F Gerhardt
Franz wrote:
Att. Climbing Gym Owners:
Please help educate the young emerging climbers on issues like these. Your notice board can be a powerful tool!


I agree Frans. I would like to suggest that in the toproping course which I have done the other day bouldering, climbing and bouldering,climbing ethics must be discussed. Most people just slap on shoes and a chalk bag and then go out there without thinking or KNOWING these things.

Then again the senior guys must also take ownership if they see something wrong in the field and tell someone what they are doing is potentially dangerous or un-ethical


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:14 pm
Posts: 213
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Ernesto Ismail
The only way Trolls end up under rocks is if another troll throws one at them or if you ambush them from above.

_________________
I don't think, therefore I'm Not


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:53 pm
Posts: 136
Real Name: Danny Pinkas
Re. the "other bad habits" of this thread, what's the deal with chopping down trees at the crags? I get the impression that some of the stronger climbers in Boven have incorporated saws into their sport climbing racks and are using them as an alternative way of warming up. For sure, if branches are in the way of climbing they should be cut or trimmed, but to cut whole trees down, even if they are dead, can't be justified unless they pose imminent danger.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 565
dannypinkas wrote:
Re. the "other bad habits" of this thread, what's the deal with chopping down trees at the crags? I get the impression that some of the stronger climbers in Boven have incorporated saws into their sport climbing racks and are using them as an alternative way of warming up. For sure, if branches are in the way of climbing they should be cut or trimmed, but to cut whole trees down, even if they are dead, can't be justified unless they pose imminent danger.

:?

But it's dead?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
Hey Stu, a dead tree is as much part of an ecosystem as a live one. I would support cutting down trees if they are invader species though, but this still needs to be done in a controlled manner otherwise we end up with erosion (which is arguably worse).

As a general response to the whole thread:
Maybe we can encourage people to follow a rule of: when you make a permanent change (ie having an effect for +12months) then first ask permission. TO apply this rule: I am at Tranquilitas grag and need to take a dump:
i. Ask (answer is avilable in the route guide)
ii. I follow instructions by taking my dump away from the footpaths, burying it, etc.

Indiscriminate wire brushing, illegal bolting, and excrement in a footpath and destroying/removal of fauna&flora without permission result in similar emotional trauma for those who decide how welcome climbers as a community are in an area, and if found guilty you may face jail time and/or stiff fines (see NEMA - National Environmental Management Act).

It is yours to do with (within legal limits) if you hold a title deed. If not, ask permission. Respect the decision if the request is declined, and challenge the decision along the porper channels if you feel like it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:38 pm
Posts: 333
Danny I think you are referring to my tree-cutting..I think I am the only one who has done any? The big dead one at Superbowl...I fell onto it while attempting the project through the roof, so yes it was dangerous. I have cut other trees/branches that have not posed a danger but make a huge difference in terms of visibility of the climbs but a tiny difference in the amount of trees beneath the crags, the lines you enjoy like Monster, Godzilla, Space Cadet, they all had heavy trimmage. Are you in Boven again, I am looking for people to put something back by helping with rebolting of old climbs, one by one, I can give you bolts and chains for Endless October and even lend you a drill. Andrew


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 719
If it is a dead tree, does cutting it down make it decompose faster/slower/take it out of the ecosystem? Or are you just moving it a bit?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:33 pm
Posts: 14
Real Name: Christian F Gerhardt
Dead trees or not guys leave footprints and chalk marks!!!!
and if you climb in SANPARK the following applies: No alterations may be made to the natural area and nothing may be removed that includes stones, sand dead trees anything that was there before you arrived (That is legislated by the National Legislation). You can however remove plastic, cigarette buts and anything that was added. Yes even the dump you took. If you realy need to go, IF you really need to go, go to the nearest longdrop or dig a deep hole with a shovel and cover it up, because I do not want to stand in crap if I boulder and want a nice day out.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 719
Ok, so the dead tree was there, and when I leave, its still there. No problem, by your logic. Superbowl is not SANParks, owned privately. Bolting is approved.


Last edited by pierre.joubert on Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 7:39 pm
Posts: 3
So I don't think i've ever seen the the results of wire-brushing and I'm wondering what exactly does it do to the rock (score it badly or something?)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:33 pm
Posts: 14
Real Name: Christian F Gerhardt
Pierre, I am not commenting on your situation per say and I think than Franz's answer would shed more light in terms of erosion control ect. Just in terms of SANPARKS I am giving a heads up and we need to be at our best behaviour with the whole redhill scenario. This means in the rest of the park where we are still allowed.

Wire brushing wil in time if done enough time break down the fine particles on the rock surfaces and therefore make it brittle. specifically sand stone.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:53 pm
Posts: 136
Real Name: Danny Pinkas
Hey Andrew

I wasn't sure who amont the Gauteng group did the deed. For sure there were branches that needed to be chopped - I saw Dewald falling into that tree a couple of years ago and don't know why he didn't do it then. However, I really don't feel it was necessary to cut down that particular tree at its base - selective sawing would have done.
Regarding the drilling I'd be more than happy to help - will send you an e mail.

D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 565
Franz wrote:
Hey Stu, a dead tree is as much part of an ecosystem as a live one. I would support cutting down trees if they are invader species though, but this still needs to be done in a controlled manner otherwise we end up with erosion (which is arguably worse).

As a general response to the whole thread:
Maybe we can encourage people to follow a rule of: when you make a permanent change (ie having an effect for +12months) then first ask permission. TO apply this rule: I am at Tranquilitas grag and need to take a dump:
i. Ask (answer is avilable in the route guide)
ii. I follow instructions by taking my dump away from the footpaths, burying it, etc.

Indiscriminate wire brushing, illegal bolting, and excrement in a footpath and destroying/removal of fauna&flora without permission result in similar emotional trauma for those who decide how welcome climbers as a community are in an area, and if found guilty you may face jail time and/or stiff fines (see NEMA - National Environmental Management Act).

It is yours to do with (within legal limits) if you hold a title deed. If not, ask permission. Respect the decision if the request is declined, and challenge the decision along the porper channels if you feel like it.

Well before we can debate this, we really need to define just what constitutes a tree :)

Here's the thing though. Humans inevitably have an impact on the environment; pathways to the crag, unsightly chalk marks, bolts, car parks, etc.

Chopping down a (dead) tree at a crag that is frequently used by climbers is no different than the trees that were chopped down in the process of building the fortress on top of TM, or building a road on Lions Head.

Humans enjoy the outdoors and we create dedicated areas (like crags) for that purpose. It's a balance; by your thinking, quite possibly no crags anywhere would be accessible, as we need to remove fynbos, trees, etc. to access the cliffs that we all so enjoy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
@Stu,

Whenever humans access an area we change it. Agreed. I do however think that all of us need to be aware of this fact and minimise our impact as far as possible (and make changes with permission to avoid angering the gods). My previous comment was not aimed at anyone, no need to be taken personally (except by those who feel they are guilty :shock: ) hehe.

True, boven is not Sanparks. Plenty of it is MCSA however, and if ignorant bafoons anger them, then people like me will have to join the MCSA and/or get a permit to get access. :mrgreen: Personally I like the lack of red tape at Boven.

Nature is not limited to Sanparks areas. The boundaries of eco-systems are not defined by the boundaries of Sanparks property.

So in conclusion: Lets just be responsible whenever we enter nature.

btw, trees are those pesky things that's (mostly) green on top in summer, have impressive root systems, and that can hurt climbers when they fall in them. :jocolor: They also burn well when dead and dry.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 565
I love nature as much as the next guy; just sayin' that sometimes removing some of it is unavoidable.
Indiscriminate removal is of course a big no-no.

So any thoughts on the destruction of the extensive Cecilia forests :wink:
(rhetorical question :))


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Posts: 717
Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Attachment:
The bomb.JPG
The bomb.JPG [ 58.79 KiB | Viewed 2527 times ]
Rules, rules, rules...

Your rules are encouraging me to buy another box of vile satanic brushes.

They are in the Kennedy catalogue of any reputable tool shop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:53 pm
Posts: 136
Real Name: Danny Pinkas
Just to clarify, the dead tree in question was similar (though much bigger) to the one in this link / below, as opposed to a tree that has fallen down and is decomposing http://www.climbing.co.za/gallery2/displayimage.php?album=17&pos=157

Ironically, the tree in this picture has also suffered at the hands of climbers.

All I'm saying is that I don't think there was a need to cut the tree at its base. Dewald's project may or may not be doable, but Superbowl will forever look a lot bearer without that tree.


Attachments:
File comment: Dead Tree
Greg_Karfoefeling_3.jpg
Greg_Karfoefeling_3.jpg [ 30.88 KiB | Viewed 2495 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 565
dannypinkas wrote:
Just to clarify, the dead tree in question was similar (though much bigger) to the one in this link, as opposed to a tree that has fallen down and is decomposing http://www.climbing.co.za/gallery2/displayimage.php?album=17&pos=157

Ironically, the tree in this picture has also suffered at the hands of climbers.

All I'm saying is that I don't think there was a need to cut the tree at its base. Dewald's project may or may not be doable, but Superbowl will forever look a lot bearer without that tree.

Take some guts to cut that one down; certainly don't know if I would've put saw to tree....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:11 pm
Posts: 179
Real Name: Kevin Dingle
Surely safety concerns trump a trees right to life?
The president was set in Peers Cave when the climb “talking to the trees” had its tree cut down.
(originally named because if you fell on the climb you had a good chance of becoming a human kebab.)
It is safe to climb now
Unless it is a 400 year old yellow wood, I do not see the big deal.
Perhaps go and plant another tree in a less dangerous position.

Kevin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
replacing trees chopped down sounds like a great idea!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:45 pm
Posts: 592
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Franz wrote:
Att. Climbing Gym Owners:
Please help educate the young emerging climbers on issues like these. Your notice board can be a powerful tool!


This appears on a lot of the noticeboards at UK Climbing Walls. Sadly it's not always noticed!

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 7:34 am
Posts: 192
Location: Stellenbosch
Real Name: Brenda Marx
What happened to just tying a tat to the first bolt of a route that's "in progress"?

About the trees... remember they were there first... should they not have "right of way"?
Great idea to make up for the damage caused by planting another one - even if a significant branch is cut off it would be good karma to plant a new tree to try to counter the damage.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group