Hi Guys

I just got terrible news. A group of people was held at gun point today at Tonquani. I don't have much details, I just spoke a few words over the phone with my buddy who is still there waiting for the cops to pitch up. Sounds like no one got hurt at least. From what I understand it happened on the path between the Jeep track from Calabash and Upper Tonquani (close to Tweedledee and Tweedledum).

What horrible news! It seems there are criminals lurking everywhere we go. I wonder if it's the same guys targeting all the kloofs and if there's a way to ambush and capture them.

And another kloof bites the dust!!

blow their brains away with a shotgun, whose stepping up for the challenge.....

Ebert I get what you say. I'm angry too, but if murder is your intent, then publishing it on the web is not the cleverest thing to do.

I still haven't heard any detail, but I received an sms from Matthys. One of his friends felt a little too sick to continue with the rest of the group so turned around with another person. They slowly made their way back from Upper Tonquani towards the cars parked at Calabash. They were stopped by 3 good for nothing criminal piece of shit cowards with guns. They were held there for between 4-6 hours. I don't know what happened in that time or after they were freed and indeed why were freed. I don't know if anyone got hurt, just that they were "OK". I also don't know if anything was taken from them. I'll wait a little longer before I phone Thys, he said he will write a letter with details of what happened.

Shorti - thanks for the heads up.

I think its pretty clear - from the access ways used in the majority of these incidents that they all share one thing in common:

- the moment you walk through an area with a local population - you are exposed to a risk.

it may be a "better idea" to use access through Mountain Sanctuary and via the South of Upper Tonq till these little issues have been sorted out.

Oh and maybe just a personal gripe.. the Jhb MCSA recently tried to put together a security patrol for Grootkloof, general email went out, 6 people volunteered, 4 people pitched, 2 people stayed ...

For all those who have great ideas about blowing people to bits but somehow never find themselves out there doing stuff… Golden opportunity buddy to convert the talk into walk…

Seriously though what are a group of ou ballie un-arrmed mcsa members really going to achieve with this security patrol. What are the police doing about it?

It's not a good Idea underestimating old ballies, remember before they were old ballies they were the "jong bokke" just like you think you are now.

My dad at the age of 55 took down a guy half his age, a good foot taller and 25kg heavier than him. It wasn't a fight, it was a beating. And no he never did marshal art or training. He's 72 now I still won't mess with him.

Garvin

Perhaps your dad can apply for the top post of Chief security patroller

The issue here is really that personal security is not an issue for the MCSA or the SAPS or whoever you want to pawn the responsibility on to – your personal security is your personal responsibility.

I agree that the MCSA probably won’t make a meaningful contribution to this issue – not for want of trying or because they don’t have a genuine intent, but because of the nature of what we are trying to do. The club can’t be everywhere all the time – but the members are.

The main problem we have here is that the majority of people have no interest in their personal security – they prefer to blame shift together with a natural apathy to get involved in a situation they are unskilled in.

The only way this problem will be solved is if each and every time you go out there – you are aware of your surroundings, don’t provide a soft target and be prepared to take responsibility for yourself. If you feel that you are not able to do this, then you seriously need to reconsider if you should be doing what you are doing?

If you are prepared to use access ways that have been identified as problem areas or that have any indication that they could be problems and are not prepared to take on situations as they arise – then you need to ask yourself if you should be doing this.

No Chalk, the issue is not awareness or personal security. If someone is pointing a firearm at you there's nothing you can do. The issue is that in this country we all love you get a firearm pointed at you in the first place! That's the issue. In what other civilised country does this happen with such regularity and lack of consequence? And it's not going to go away if the SAPS do not do their jobs and put people behind bars.

there is the way things are and the way things shoudl be... Fact of the matter is if you want to go climbing you have to deal with it... and if you are not prepared to deal with it... dont go climbing...

Hey oubaas, unfortunately my dad would agree with Chalk. if your in the bush where the baddies hang out you're looking for trouble and if you can't handle what comes your way to bad so sad.

one day I may have to swallow very hard on these words.

Garvin

I know I am not making friends by saying these things - and i do apologise if I offend or challenge ideas on this.

The fact is – every time someone goes out there and gets hit two things happen:
• power is taken away from us as the users of the property by having our lives hemmed in and people deciding how and when we will do what we love and ;
• we give power to them by allowing them to improve their tactics and becoming more confident.

We are not going to wipe out corruption at a government level, bring down crime syndicates, wipe out the drug trade or anything as dramatic as that, but each and every one of us can a difference every time we visit the crags.

Well stated Proze. My thoughts exactly

This is my first time on this site. Some of you guys need to read this website's "terms of use" policy. I also suggest the moderators start moderating some of the content on this site. It's pretty over the top. Lucky for you, advertisers and sponsors havent pulled out because of some of these less tactful comments.

Well that was off-topic, so pot-kettle-black to YOU!

I'm actually referring to posts that were in this thread, some of which are now removed. Thanks to those of you who took some of the poor taste comments off. Forket, are you for real? Posting stuff like that should get you banned. It's not constructive.

Dude you can't delete posts on this forum, unless your post is the last post in the thread. None were deleted or edited (it actually says when a post has been edited, what time, how many times and by whom) - what are you on about?

Exactly what is in poor taste? Ebert saying that criminal muggers should be shot? Are you some kind of bleeding heart liberal hippy tree hugger human rights activist vegan or what?

Nope. Acutally I've been a victim of a climbing incident. But posting off the cuff comments about shooting people puts you on the same level as the criminals my friend. I was just calling it like it is. Some of the comments on this site are aggressive and in poor taste.

Perhaps Aggressive is the only solution!!

I disagree. Only armed robbery puts you on the same level as the particular criminals in question. Unless Ebert is robbing people by pointing a firearm at them, he is still many levels above the trash that rob people in the mountains.

Where they were robbed is a special place to me - this report pisses me off!


What! No WAY! You sure?!?!

Relax boys, I don't know what happyclimber is going on about either. For all we know he/she is a troll, but it doesn't really matter. We all know Ebert is slightly hot headed by now, he means no harm. He's angry and frustrated just like everyone else.

I don't really want to get into "the solution" right now, my mind is not in a good place at the moment. I just wanted to let everyone know, not because I wanted to, it's just because I care and want to warn my friends (everyone that has a good interest in the place is my friend).

Happyclimber, I'm sorry about what evidently happened to you even though I don't know what happened to you. Don't let this stuff anger you too much, just ignore the comments you can't agree with. They were not meant maliciously, I don't think so. If you have useful information please share it.

The only new info I have is from this morning's letter from the MCSA. Here it is for those who haven't seen it:

INCIDENT WALKING FROM CALABASH TO TONQUANI. Permit holders were attacked when walking from Calabash parking towards Tonquani. This did not happen in the kloof but on top. Two of the group(of a bigger group, had to turn back because of one feeling ill) were mugged and held at gun point by three African men for nearly 5 hours. Fortunately no one was hurt.
This is a very sad and worrying situation. Please be very aware when ‘out there’, don’t take valuables, bank cards.
The committees are working on the security problem.

Geesh shorty, that's certainly no way to talk to a lady. I'm a foreigner, and you guys sure know how to make a hot-headed impression. Construtive solutions gentlemen.

Wow. How did you read any disrespect to you in my reply? If anything I was getting the others (who happened to be my friends) off your back.

No, I didn't edit my previous post to delete anything, I just added the letter from the MCSA.

Don't worry, I understood that. I was just teasing you about the "troll" comment. I'm just a little gal. Not a little troll.

By the way, I survived an incident with one other climber. We were approached by men with a knife, cricket bat and large hammer. I was somewhat traumatized by the incident, although we got away unharmed. That's all I want to say about that. I just have a few constructive reminders and comments to help you climb more safe in the kloofs:
1) Go with a large group of climbers and/or take spectators along.
2) Leave all valuables (wedding rings, expensive phones, wallets) at home
3) Be prepared. Know what the other people in your group are prepared to do if there is an incident. I had made a plan with my fellow climber, in case we were ever in trouble, and we followed it!
4) Know simple self-defense techniques if possible.
5) Contact your local police and officials (including the press and politicians) to complain about the security issues. If we all do this, at least it is worth a shot.
6) Participate in constructive solutions, such as taking part in organized patrols.

The security problems make me angry too. That's why I am on board to engage in constructive solutions, even though this isnt my "home" turf. I want to climb safe in SA.

Just to kill any possibility of trolling - I know both shorti and happyclimber personally and will vouch for either.

Well at least the mugging wasn't inside the kloof. Still this is totally unacceptable. Good luck, and I hope these guys get apprehended.

_________________
"I have no more friends, and my nuts are too small!"

All right, thanks happy climber, your advice sounds good.