It is currently Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:31 pm

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:53 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Ferdinand Pieterse
Hi,

Myself and some friends went to Paarl on Sat and when we walked over to "Belly Button Brigade" to see how wet it is we saw someone bolted a new route next to it called "Little Duck".

How do I know the name of this new route you ask, well that is because the bolter painted it on the slab.

I still a newbie in the community but it was really sad to see blue paint on a slab.

I don't know when I can go that way again, but would anyone object if take some thinners with me and clean it?

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
Posts: 2874
Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
Thanks for the report Ferdinand.
This is not the norm for route marking in SA. Before anyone cleans it off, it would be good to hear from the person who bolted the route and why they opted to paint the route name below the route.

Muizneberg Crag has a couple of small metal plaques glued to the rock (which can be very useful) and The Hole has 1 or 2 routes marked with pen.

_________________
Climb ZA - Administrator


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:11 pm
Posts: 163
Real Name: Kevin Dingle
I was interested to see that in namibia, it seems the norm to spray paint route markings any where you like.

I was horrified to see so many big black arrows painted on boulders in the fish river canyon.

But they did serve a purpose and kept us on route.

Spits koppe is the same, most of the sport climbs have the grade and name painted on the base.

Maybe the bolter is namibian?

IMHO i feel it is graffiti and should be removed.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:53 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Ferdinand Pieterse
I'm not sure when I can go that way again so I will hold off a bit, next time I go I'll remove it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:41 am
Posts: 704
Real Name: OneDog
It seems to be fairly common up here. All the (old) route names at Bobbejaansberg were painted on. Nice & neat.
There are quite a few at Boven (pen and painted?), and at Bronkies there are also quite a few (pen).

I get the argument about it being graffiti - fair enough. I like Neil & David's solution of the tags at Kings Kloof, except they break off quite quickly - a better material would be needed.

My biggest objection is the grade being written as well and then over time it gets adjusted through consensus making it a totally useless marking on the rock - a recent example is "Pumpkin Time" at Bronkies - marked 18 on the rock, 17 on the Wiki.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 527
Real Name: Warren Gans
I Like Hermie's solution at The Farm: paint names on to loose, flat stones, and place those at the base of the routes.

I think this conversation goes down to ethos of the local community and the land owner. If the markings are neat, easy to identify and small/subtle then it isn't as much of an issue- in those areas. For Boven both the local community and land owner are happy to have this system. In Montaseel many routes even have rough route descriptions painted at the base, but this speaks of a different time and ethos- today this would not be tolerated.

I agree with Kevin: ultimately it is graffiti, and we should become less tolerant of it as a rule. The same should be true with removing excessive chalk and tick marks off routes. A couple months ago Supertube was cleaned of all the graffiti we could reach and remove, leaving only the chalk behind and what an eye sore it was!
Writing on the base of routes speaks of laziness, or lack of ability to solve simple problems. There are advantages of having markers for the purposes of orientating ones' self to the crag, however wouldn't using natural features such as arêtes, open books, trees and large blocks be just as effective? If they don’t exist than perhaps a cairn?

On the topic of graffiti- and sorry to sideline the conversation- I would like to have the "Wedding Rock" at the head of Bad Kloof cleansed of all paint. There is a great deal more in that area that needs cleaning, but requires more attention than the thinners and scrubbing brushes offered. Does anyone have other suggestions on how exactly to clean such stubborn paint? My goal for 2013 is to be there on 03/03/2013, (when the now widowed husband returns there is add his next instalment of paint) and see his reaction to the clean rock, and confront him on the topic. My only flaw on my confrontation would be knowing that there is a little climbing graffiti down the valley in the form of chalk, but at least it isn't permanent.

_________________
Sandbagging is a dirty game


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 712
Having the route name at the base is standard in some areas all over the world, and frowned upon at others, home and away.

Some crags have parking lots, some have signs, some have bolts, some have tat. Most have chalk. Others have paths. Others you bushwack over them plants. Some have cairns. Don't worry too much about it. You, me, the blue paint and our CO2 will be gone one day. Even the stainless bolts!

You're happy to clip the bolts someone drilled into the rock, but writing the name in small blue letters on gray rock is to be undone? Interesting, we humans and our absolute ethics and morals. Which are everything BUT absolute. More like opinions, fluxy ones at that.

This is how some bolters do it in Kalymnos - they're stuck on with epoxy, there's another debate for you.
Image

By removing the sign, you will have left another. Everyone will now know the route at the Belly Button slab with the blue splodge at the base is called Little Duck. So I suppose mission accomplished for both you and the sign painter right?

@Warren - check out these guys - their products are apparently the shit:
http://www.graffitiremovalservices.co.z ... lace_order
You can buy the cleaner and DIY


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
Posts: 2874
Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
Warren G wrote:
A couple months ago Supertubes was cleaned of all the graffiti we could reach and remove, leaving only the chalk behind and what an eye sore it was!
I would like to have the "Wedding Rock" at the head of Bad Kloof cleansed of all paint.

Thanks for this. Part of the problem in the kloof I believe is the municipality's sloppy signage marking the ever changing route through kloof. We have offered countless times to do it for them, using the stencil that they own... however they have never taken us up on the offer.
That wedding rock graffiti needs to go!

WRT to Paarl I imagine it will come to down to the landowner (as it usually does) - what will the officials at Paarl Rock say if/when they come across the 'graffiti' (also knowing that a climber put it there)?

_________________
Climb ZA - Administrator


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:37 pm
Posts: 300
I must say I really don't like leaving an unnecessary impact, but I guess some limited discreet route marking is nothing compared to bolts, chalk, paths and our mere presence. I define limited as every 5th route so you can get your bearing, and discrete as 10x2cm. If the hikers can have some signs, then surely climbers can too?

Warren if you and co removed all that graffiti, then you are flippin heroes. Do you have before and after pics? PS I was at Peers cave a while back and the Sunset Strip sector base was defaced by some really ugly religious rant. Does anyone know if its been removed?

_________________
AndyDavies


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:11 pm
Posts: 127
Warren G wrote:
There is a great deal more in that area that needs cleaning, but requires more attention than the thinners and scrubbing brushes offered. Does anyone have other suggestions on how exactly to clean such stubborn paint?


Warren, have you tried paint stripper?

I noticed some @sshole wrote on rocks along TM's contour path :evil: I intend going up with some paint stripper when I next head up there... which will probably be this weekend, or sooner if the weather plays along!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
I think someone should use that paint stripper, and lots of it, then get an industrial sandblaster and remove any remnants that the stripper couldnt get to! Then coat it with DDT or another highly toxic ( maybe radioactive?) substance that can excrete and transfer onto the hands of anyone who try to resign a route. Should also afterwards coat it with a descent long life release agent to further prevent re-signage. You can get the stuff on the black market, and selected industrial chemical companies.

Jeez, there's a real need to make an example of someone!

:alien:
:bom:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 527
Real Name: Warren Gans
@ Andy: Graffiti is one thing that has always irritated me: its permanent litter and display of bad parenting. Brendon and Sheldon Smith drove with me to the Montagu Rally, but we all got broken on Saturday and so I bought some supplies and the three of us took a walk down Bad kloof on Sunday. We managed to clean everything off at Jurassic Park before heading down to Supertube, then on our way back we tried to remove some yellow painted signage, the circa 1940’s graffiti opposite Play Ground and the Wedding Rock, but they were all too stubborn. I would be very happy to go back and assault the kloof again with the right stuff and would be keen to get stuck in on other project of this ilk. We were using thinners and turps and elbow grease.

On a lighter note: when I got home I had a huge argument with a digsmate on the morals of removing the paint on the Wedding Rock. I think the one comment I got was something like “Warren, if you aren’t talking shit than today you proved that gingers have no souls.” I told him to take a look at the rock before commenting, and I’m not a ginger!

_________________
Sandbagging is a dirty game


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 712
Maybe a bit bigger could help

http://www.graffitiremovalservices.co.za/index.php?section=place_order

They provide the service, or the chemicals only


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:53 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Ferdinand Pieterse
pierre.joubert wrote:
You're happy to clip the bolts someone drilled into the rock, but writing the name in small blue letters on gray rock is to be undone? Interesting, we humans and our absolute ethics and morals. Which are everything BUT absolute. More like opinions, fluxy ones at that.


Granted, I agree the bolts are probably making the text insignificant wrt impact. I do not want to start a whole "to bolt or not" debate however.

Although I will accept it might make me sound like a hypocrite, in my little experience I see bolts/paths chalk as impact we will always have as part of the sport and the only way to avoid this is not to climb at all.
However if we accept that we are going to climb, then I feel we should keep the impact we have control over to a minimum, like chalk marks, paint, cigarette buds etc.

TLDR: Is this something that is ok at Paarl and I should just get with the program, or is it something people would appreciate me cleaning.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:37 pm
Posts: 300
Warren, Brendan an Sheldon we all owe you a beer :thumleft: but don't drink them all at once.

For any future projects of this nature, I'm sure the MCSA would be keen to help you in any way possible.

_________________
AndyDavies


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
please dont remove the route names in boven! I may get lost, and besides, its pretty!
The cape however, I believe should remain without it.

general graffiti however, that's just screwed up.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:13 am
Posts: 136
Location: Benoni
Real Name: David Wade
The route name, writen small and neatly below the route is very usefull


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:27 pm
Posts: 54
There is one problem with using chemicals/thinners/paint strippers on rock apart from the fact that they are chemicals (which I won't get into).

All of these dissolve the paint. I would imagine that on porous rock the colour would seep into the rock. This is why you generally stay away from paint strippers when removing paint from wood (for restoration) and rather use a heating element to seperate the paint from the substrate. It is however the most viable way to remove the paint and I don't think that it would be a problem on granite.

I thought I would just point out the fact.

Something to consider is the RemoveALL range from Plascon, they make a gel based paint remover which I have been using and it is environmentally aware, water-based and most importantly biodegradable. I am willing to donate a jar of it for testing to anyone that is going out there soon otherwise I will take some along with me next time I go to give it a try...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:53 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Ferdinand Pieterse
@thomsonza

Thanks, since we got rained out despite weather conditions promising very little rain, I'm hoping this weekend will work better.
If I do go I will contact you or look for the Plascon stuff myself.

My overall issue (despite all debates about ethics/convenience etc) is the fact that Paarl is not run by a private owner, and writing on rock in areas run by "Nature conservation" etc feels like we are begging for our access to be brought into question.

Since we have had no access issues in Paarl so far I would like to help to keep it that way.

So if I can't go next weekend, can whoever goes next please help with the cleanup for the sake of access to the area if nothing else.

Thanks for everybody's input.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:45 pm
Posts: 558
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
I think writing on the rock and bolting are not the same thing at all; bolting is (arguably) necessary for climber's safety, writing names of every route the rock is is getting close to spoonfeeding the lazy.

Hwever, I think small and subtle is just about acceptable provided it is guaranteed that no-one other than climbers will see it, as to non-climbers the route names are just names, and are as unsightly to them as any other graffitti is to us, and can be regarded as thin end of the wedge; if it's OK for someone else to write a name on the rock, why not me?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
Posts: 2874
Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
Have to agree with Ferdinand on the following
alvaourr wrote:
My overall issue (despite all debates about ethics/convenience etc) is the fact that Paarl is not run by a private owner, and writing on rock in areas run by "Nature conservation" etc feels like we are begging for our access to be brought into question.
Since we have had no access issues in Paarl so far...


Perhaps we get someone famous to paint route names for us?? :roll:
Graffiti at Truitjieskraal
"Rock art of a different kind catches the attention in the main cave – graffiti that goes back to 1881. The names record the visits by two apartheid era state presidents too".
Image

_________________
Climb ZA - Administrator


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
thomsonza wrote:
There is one problem with using chemicals/thinners/paint strippers...All of these dissolve the paint.


which is why they are so cool! just imagine the psychodelic patterns that can form!
I suggest rather than a heat gun, we stick to the solvents and hard stuff, and just to make sure, we also light a match :cyclops:

I think Chris has the most forward thinking, write our route names [with permission], but in a place hidden from the public eye. Makes a lot of sense!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:27 pm
Posts: 54
Quote:
and just to make sure, we also light a match


Alternatively, we can just rent a flame thrower and just toast the rock :bom:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Posts: 706
Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Writting route name & a picture of a duck, in blue paint marker, in an area controled by "Nature conservation" is stupid shit.

Stop yourself Little Duck & run to remove if climbing at Paarl matters to you.

Discreet route names or route name initial & grade are quite fine in areas not under conservation eye.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 527
Real Name: Warren Gans
I am yet to read a post that convinces me of the advantage of writing on the wall rather than using natural markers as a core strategy to figuring out which route is what. Most of RSA's painted route markings are in Boven, an area owned by the climbing community and climbing centric, however this would be totally in appropriate in Oudtshoorn, Table Mountain or 50 other crags not under such strict sport climbing domination. If you want to indicate which line is which why not simply paint the first bolt a different colour? this would indicate which route is which and not damage the rock any more that necessary.

This thread speaks volumes for our lack of adventure, creativity and laziness; leaving little wonder why it is that so few climbers actually open routes, but rather content themselves with repeating routes 100's have done before, following hard-to-get-lost dot-to-dots up the wall.

_________________
Sandbagging is a dirty game


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Posts: 706
Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
The pic of the duck is a touch creative & extra(thus artist is not lazy)....but it will be another hundred before the pic of the duck becomes cool.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:27 pm
Posts: 54
So... eggghhmmm.... excuse the ignorance... but what happened to using a guide book?

If you're going to tell me that the guide books aren't updated often enough... fair call... but then this very forum that you are using, is this not the best way of letting people know about your new route. If that's not enough, there is a link, to the right of the forum link labelled 'routes wiki'... update the wiki...

I've never had the problem of finding a route with a guide book. If you haven't found the route with a guide book, you're probably not going to find the route with the name on the bottom of it anyway. A name tag on a route is not required and is only a luxury.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], Exabot [Bot], Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group