Hope to ask some wisdom from the Trad guys. To start I have looked on the site for similar threads and on the interweb as not to ask the same things twice...havent had too much luck with some specifics:

Basically, I am hoping to put together a Trad Rack & start doing some trad. Here in the Garden Route, we have very limited sport crags and I have long since done them all, many times over.

I am comfortable doing routes up to about 20 and also comfortable with the concepts and implementation of Anchors. My approach would be to do some nice-and-easy 13-14-15 Trad routes and work my way from there (routes with little chance to fall). Some routes I see myself doing would include TowerKop, Swartberg, Table Mountain and possibly unknown routes close to home. Starting with Single pitch.

What do you think of the following as a Starter Kit:

1. Rack of C4 BD Camelots (for mid to big stuff) with double on popular sizes (suggestions for #'s I should get)
2. Rack of Metolius Master Cam (for the smaller stuff) - only for the finger size holds and use BD for everything bigger (size # ??)
3. Rack of BD Hex (complete range set) other options?
4. X5 120cm slings - for anchors
5. X2 60cm slings - for carrying gear, using natural protection on a route.
6. X2 30cm slings - extending gear in tight places
7. X3-5 Carabiners (locking) - I already own a few but for anchor systems
8. X5 snap-gate carabiners - for using on gear to attach rope
9. X1 Removal tool
10. X5m Cordette - for anchoring, Chicken head
11. X2 Prussic loops....

This is still a working list and I am probably still missing a few things...your thoughts please? So a good starter rack for the route mentioned above...

What would your feeling be on doing some easy Trad routes without 'formal' guidance? If you think it is a bad idea...is it due to expertise needed for gear placement or anchoring??

Hope to hear your thought...J

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Who Dares...Wins (SAS)
Jacques

First impression is you are going overboard on expensive cams and hexes, an light on nuts. If you are climbing grade 13/14/15 the hexes as well as the cams will be an expensive investment, where you can but a full set of WC rocks (or similar) for the price of a cam or two.

Als you seem to have a lot of long slings; i would have thougth 1 x 120 cm and maybe 2 x 60 cm and 2 x 30 plus some quickdraws (unless you have have these already?)

Rather than rush out and buy too much only to find you don't need half of it, better to buy a lighter rack and then after a few easier climbs see what your find you need more of on the routes and then supplement accordingly.

Assume you have a helmet already too?

And I would recommend seconding someone else taking gear out first if possible, or placing gear at ground level for someone to have a look at before setting out on the sharp end. No point buying a whole load of expensive kit if you don't know how to use it safely.

Thanks Chris, all your points noted and appreciated.
Unfortunately George only has a handful of climbers, so not always as easy to arrange an experienced hand to look over your shoulder...but agree with you!

Thanks

_________________
Who Dares...Wins (SAS)
Jacques

Forget the:
1) 30cm slings
2) cordilette

Get more:
3) 'biners (I carry 2 per sling + 1 per cam)
4) 60 cm slings (Learn how to make 'extenda-quickdraws)

Less:
5) Locking biners (I carry only 2)

As many:
6) Cams as you can afford (I carry 10 accumulated over many years)
7) hexes as you feel like (I carry 1, and place it on every route, just to show I'm still badass)

Learn to:
Use your prussics to ascend yourself
9) use your prussics to hoist your partner
10) exit the system

And yes:
11) Helmet !

Wow that is an extensive list of gear, it would be a nice rack but to start with it is a bit much stuff. This is what I would get:

Camalots 0.4, 0.75, 1 ,2, 3
full set of wires
nutpick
1 240cm sling
1 120cm sling
3 60cm slings
2 long draws
8 medium draws (draws that you would typically use for sport climbing)
2 screw gates
11 lightweight biners (one for every sling, a screw gate can be used for the 240cm sling, and one for every cam, two biners for holding the wires)
2 prussic cords
helmet

The 5m cordilette is very useful if you plan on doing top roping, I've never used one while leading.

It is good to start off doing lots of easy routes that have lots of gear. As it will take some time to get better at using the gear and by then you will have a good idea of what other gear you want to supplement your rack with. You can top rope some easy sport routes and go up placing and removing the gear and each time you repeat the route try find new placements.

Always best to climb with experienced leader first, but if you really have to go it alone, try to get hold of Heidi Pesterfield's book on trad lead climbing.

You do not want to fall on easy trad (<15 )routes, as you would certainly hit a ledge. They also tend to be vegetated and not much fun imho.

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You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

Agreed.




I dont know where you live, but if not in Zilleville i suggest you move: here in the sunny Cape we may have as many quality routes graded under 15, as quality routes graded harder.

aliens / mastercams / C3s / BD X4s are imho essential to a good rack - making those tight, small cam placements are often the only gear between you and a badass whipper. and as much as i like hexes, cams & nuts are on top of the gear chain.
for what it's worth, my rack-of-racks:
master cams sizes 0 - 4
BD C4 sizes 0.5 - 4
set of DMM wallnuts
set of DMM slinged hexes (torque nuts)
add slings & draws as required (15cm draws with a nice floppy sling) + all the other goodies mentioned

doubling up on gear really depends on the routes you're climbing. if you have really want to, start by one small and one medium cam - i'd double on the mastercam #3 and C4 #1. omega pacific link cams are also very useful as double-ups due to their insane range.

oh, and a BD guide / reverso 3 belay device is priceless when you have 2 guys seconding (for simultaneous belays).

BTW, Lion's Head has two of the best grade 15 lines anywhere - both have tonnes of gear and you will more likely than not fall clean if you come off. check out the main (gendarme level) pitches of Aquanaut & Clifton Crest next time you're in Zilleville.

LOL, that is my rack, except I have the Dragons rather than the C4s, and no hexes

For what it is worth, get Metolius Master Cams, BD X4 Predators or Alien cams rather than the C3s. They are just so much better because of the flexible stems.
I prefer the Dragons to the C4s, I really like the extendable slings on them, it reduces "walking".

I carry a cordellette when climbing with 2 seconds, it means that I can avoid using the rope in the stance which makes the change overs smoother but that is the only time. Consider getting two nut picks, one to hang on your harness and one to hang on the rack so that you never forget to give it to your second.

A knife is a useful thing too, not only can you play "Touching the Void" but you can also remove old tat and cut replacement pieces. The Petzl Spathas are great, just hang them on a piece of cord rather than on the biner directly, they have a nasty habit of opening by themselves when hanging on a biner.

As Hann said, 2 prussik loops, they may save your life/your seconds life, just learn how to use them. They should be made out of decent cord and about 0.5 or 0.6 of your ropes diameter. I have 4mm prussiks for my 8mm ropes.

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Happy climbing
Nic

Considering the risk to your safety (and the safety of your seconder), surely it is better to make a special trip to Cape Town or some other similar area for a weekend or so to learn trad from a regular trad climber (lol - have I been watching too much Big Bang Theory that I immediately think I need to clarify that I'm not referring to digestive regularity ).

I'm am not an expert on any form of climbing, but when I took up trad I first googled how to trad climb, read lots of online tutorials and then got a person who has been trad climbing for ages to take me trad climbing. I also frequently ask the guy who runs the local climbing gym questions about stuff I am not 100% sure on, when we recently went outdoor climbing as a gym I was watching what he did for setting up the ropes, asked questions about the setup etc. Its the only way to properly learn.

Also, I'm sure there are some good youtube videos about this, they should be helpful.

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If you are what you eat, rock climbers must be people who eat nuts...

Thank you all...

Ok, so I agree the transition from Sports --> Trad will require some tuition (I have enquired before @ Venture Forth)...so ZilleVille will be visited! I am making note of Lions Head [15] for one of the starter routes.

I have added a Helmet & extra nut-tool as well as knife.
It was difficult to gauge what oversea's people say you need for a rack, as most of them climbing very different rock and/or doing some big multi-pitch route...hence the larger rack size I was thinking I needed...looks like u can start much simpler.

I see a certain trend here & think I got a pretty good idea on what would be needed...but first a trip to Slaap$tat...

Last question...what is the name of the knot that looks like a ball (woven pattern)...could be useful to wedge in somewhere...and what might you stick in the middle to keep its form? (not a beginner item).

J

_________________
Who Dares...Wins (SAS)
Jacques

Monkey fist?

I think they are used in the soft sandstone crags in Germany and Chech Republic (or thereabouts) but probaby not ideal for harder rocks - a good hex or similar is definitely a safer option.

It's called a Monkey's Fist

The routes you should try do while you are in Cape Town are:

Clifton Crest and Aquanaut on Lions Head, both 15
Staircase (12) and Jacobs Ladder (16) on Fountain Ledge, TM.

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Happy climbing
Nic

Just don't try Hughenot Crack (12) on the Lion's head granite...the 12 route is completely overgrown and you have to head up the 16 "alternative route". So you get 4 pieces of gear in the first pitch and have this nice scary slabby runout section with 100% deck probability if you fall
But what an incredible last part of that pitch going up that thin flake

_________________
Who Dares...Wins (SAS)
Jacques

I would do a course with Ross Suter, not that expensive and he will teach you the easy parts, placing gear etc, and the NB

stuff like escaping the belay, hoisting an injured 2nd (you would use prusuiks here too!), rapping off your own placed

chock-stone, etc
IMHO, knife only necessary on country routes.
Ya , a spare nut pick, helmet, sling and locker is always handy for 2nd's if you can afford it, although that should be

default for anybody stepping on a mountain

Dragons are nice for the extendable sling-rope drag is a bitch, C4's are cheaper though and silky smooth
Small cams: Alien, C3 , master cam are all good, Predator's/X4's should be good
5 x slings with a biner on each attached to one of those plastic ice screw tool holders works well for cam extenders
5-12 long quick draws depending on route/ pitch length
4-5 slings depending on route direction and roofs, also used for slinging chicken heads
3-5 (route dependent) slings, same as above, nice for slinging large blocks, pinch points, anchors
Re slings: the thin Mammut ones are really good, less bulky
Rope drag is a bitch
don't bother with hexes, get full range of WC Rocks
1 x DMM BOA locker, holds many clove hitches for stance
1 x Petzl 3D Attache for belay device
Get 50m ropes, 60m are a waste
Get a good harness, might be heavier, WC Summit with 6 gear loops and loads of padding is the way fwd
1 x head torch
1 x wind shell (compacts to tennis ball size, strap to gear loop)
Colour code you racking biners, helps for identification, Neutrino or Phantom
3-4 BD Oval for racking nuts and micro cams
Don't bother with cordalette, use the rope
Helium's are nice for loose biners, key-lock/hooded=no snagging =easy cleaning, light and decent size for handling, but expensive
VFF for approach, walk off-light and compact
Cams: Starter rack, finger size-->large purple
Intermediate: micro--> Large purple, plus a few doubles
Next level: double on micro-->gold

Take lots of Money,

Cormac

Love a rack discussion in the morning!
"don't bother with hexes" - no man, now you're breaking my heart.
Gotta have at least two - for the joy of the bells...

C ya there,
Bruce

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LCD SCUM

"win a trad rack worth R14500"
omgosh!!!!!
hoarding trad gear is my favourite thing to do!!
tradathon here i cooooooome

It would appear that you are in Cape Town Mok... so maybe a trip to Magaliesberg for a chance to win a rack is a bit much....

I would agree with all the advice about learning from someone, especially Ross as mentioned...

One thing I don't agree with at all is carrying 2 locking biners....how many of you can create a decent stance with 2 locking biners...you guys must fall into the category of climbers whose seconds never load the rope...


Let me see...one locking biner on one piece of pro & then attach the rope to that with a figure of eight...a section of rope...another 8 & the other to belay off? You guys have bigger balls than brains...

Come now seriously put some pictures up as to how you can create a decent stance with 3 points of protection & a master point for belaying off for a second that is bound to fall using 2 locking carabiners please...

You guys are ridiculous sometimes REALLY how can you tell someone who has not done a lot of trad to carry the absolute minimum...are you trying to kill him?

Oh and listen to the guy who carries a cordellete so that he doesn't have to use the rope on stances...his reasoning is sound...you will probably climb with an even less experienced newbie & so will have to lead off the stance everytime...so in fact 2 cordellete's may be even better so that you do not have to rearrange stances everytime...

Ask a guide...that's exactly what most of them do...its safer, faster & more clear as to what's going on...

Learning to place gear is important, learning to create safe stances will keep you & your partner safe...it is possibly the most dangerous shortcut that "experienced" climbers take, so take that seriously & learn how to trad safely...
you can always learn how to be a reckless a--hole later- maybe from your 2 locking carabiner mates!

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Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

I like this guys YouTube channel...
He gives very practical advice ... and makes what look like killer pancakes



Also...against too many locking biners...Once you're experienced enough of course

Hey old smelly, the stench getting to you or the old age?
You could use 2 opposing biners,
If you gonna start calling people Assholes, maybe you should not hide behind your 'handle',
Cheers
Cormac

Stop being an asshole Cormac. Sheesh man I can't take you anywhere and you make a scene

At least it's sunny when my Ass is around!

So you are happy taking lead falls onto a single nonlocking biner in a single piece of gear but worry about a second falling on a 3 piece stance using nonlocking biners to join the rope to the gear and with a locking biner into the reverso/guide? Ok...

Here is a stance built to your spec

_________________
Happy climbing
Nic

Quite right Nic! That does look good

To the rest of you who get worked up about being called names I apologise....its just that DEAD beginners upset me.

The normal old story about revealing who I am...blah blah...no I reserve the right to be anonymous so that what I say is judged on its merit & not by YOU knowing who I am...

I think no less of you because you are rude back to me (even though I know who you are)...but the real point is show me a good stance that you have made with 2 locking biners...

I knew that someone would come along with the back to back biners thing... but seriously...is that how you plan to make good stances as a beginner...

Come on...stop being defensive even if I have got your back up & think....do we teach beginners to do things by the barest minimum or a textbook solution...we know that once they are experienced they can decide to be 2 carabiner A types but until then good stances with locking carabiners would be the way a good instructor/ professional guide would do it.

At some point you could teach them to use 2 carabiners back to back as an emergency solution then but why on earth would you teach this as the norm? To save carabiners? You are actually wasting non locking biners you need for pro while climbing (2 for every 1 locker)? smart hey?

As to Nics last point well I probably don't climb like you Nic, I place more than one piece of pro, so I am not relying on 1 non locking biner but many...

Seriously though Nic...once again...is that really what you teach people that they can hold stances together with snap gates & belay off snap gates....I can just hear all the guides laughing...heaven forbid that the Yanks read this....next thing you will be suggesting abseiling directly off slings without a biner...

Doubtless you are a brilliant climber & I do not wish to insult you (which is why you should be anonymous so I didn't feel so bad) but anyone (not necessarily you - I hope you understand) who teaches beginners to do things in the most risky way possible should not be teaching people how to climb or suggesting they learn bad practice from the word go...

I can hear the lynch mob approaching...so I ask for proof from one reputable guide or training manual that we start by teaching people not to create stances with locking carabiners....find one that recommends that - I challenge you...or go back to asking me to identify myself & being tedious...

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Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

Thanks again, making notes...

Can someone give me Ross' contact details or his 'nick' on this site for a PM?
Thanks Xenomorph for the YouTube clip (with the Deliverance theme track)...

_________________
Who Dares...Wins (SAS)
Jacques

I think we may be misunderstanding each other here, and getting somewhat off topic but anyway here goes, this is how I usually rig my stances:
1) Put in 3 pieces of gear, with single clip gates on each piece <shock, horror>
2) Clove hitch my one rope to two of the pieces with a long bight in between them and clove hitch my other rope to the last piece
3) Bring the bight of rope and a piece of rope from the 3rd piece together and tie them all together using an overhand knot
4) Clip my reverso to the knot with a locking biner
5) Put the ropes through the reverso and secure them with a second locking biner

Then I'm ready to go.

My reasoning is as follows:
The main fear of non-locking carabiners is that the gate will "flap" as it is loaded and the rope will be able to jump out. However in my stance the rope is clove hitched to the carabiner and cannot jump out of the carabiner.
The second fear is that the nonlocking carabiner is going to snag over an edge and the gate will be forced open and the rope will be able to slip out. This is easy to control for because it is easy to check if the carabiner will snag under loading when building the stance, if it could snag then extend it with a sling or use two carabiners with their gates opposed. And again my rope is clovehitched to the carabiner and cannot slip out.
Finally, there are three pieces of gear in the stance, any one of which would probably be strong enough to hold a fall by the second on its own. The probability of the rope "jumping" or slipping out of a single non locking carabiner is very low already, and the chances of it "jumping" or slipping out of 3 separate, independent pieces simultaneously is negligible.

I'm quite happy with this stance setup and will happily teach everyone I introduce to trad climbing to build stances this way. And yes my stances setup this way have held many lead and second falls without ever having any problems.

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Happy climbing
Nic

Nice & rational Nic.

I agree your stance sounds great! I just don't agree that one teaches people to use snap gates instead of lockers for stances. I hear you about the clove hitches & the way it gets loaded - I just cannot see why one would use snap gates instead of lockers -is it weight saving? or time saving? Maybe I should punt the new Magnetron locking biners here - they will be just as fast as the snap gates & give one the added security one should have on a stance.

If one creates a masterpoint on a cordellette (as opposed to belaying off your harness) & you used the aforementioned magnetrons to attach to the protection & create the masterpoint ($$$ I can hear the till going wild), then when your second gets there you can attach them to two of the points & they can belay you straight off the masterpoint as you go into your next lead (remember this beginner is unlikely to be swinging leads with his even more inexperienced belayer). Placing some pro for a unidirectional pull would be necessary in this case but that is always advisable anyway.

This to me is more simple that rearranging the clove hitched, rope intensive stance created when you belay off your harness. It also gives the lead(er) more control over the entire scenario- possibly why guides use this method. Of course one can learn to make stances using a self equalising quadralette which is slightly better than a cordellette but let's not muddy the waters with that at this point.

All in all I think one should teach best practice & then discuss minimalism once the climber is experienced enough to understand why one would take that approach.

So many approaches to trad - in this case I suggest learn from a guide who has training in beginner instruction. Doubtless mentorships help but one can get a lot of variations & then one has to evaluate who is teaching you best practice. I still doubt you will see one professional or gear manufacturer recommending snap gates for stances over lockers.

It's probably not the shoes in that case - probably the smell of "team spirit"

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Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

Mostly I climb with people who lead trad, so using the rope in the stance is not a problem, I just clip the belay device to me directly and then they they lead off on the next pitch. As I said above if I am climbing with 2 seconds (I omitted this) or if the second doesn't lead, then I'll climb with a cordellette and make the stances using it rather than the rope. Still means the rope has to be restacked which is a bit of a mission.

I don't climb with lots of lockers, I usually only have 3 with me on my climbing harness. It does save weight because I'm minimizing carrying carabiners that can only be used in the stance.

Self-equalizing belay things are IMO a waste of time, heavy and less safe than using a cordellette/rope to build the stance. If any one strand of the self-equalizing belay thing gets cut (say by rockfall), the entire thing is now useless and will just pull through - in effect all they do is reduce your multipoint, independent system to a single point. Is rockfall a greater risk than a rope jumping out of a clipgate? I've seen lots of rockfall but never seen a rope jump out of a clipgate...
And besides, it really is not difficult to equalize a masterpoint/BFK correctly, just pull it in the direction of loading and tie it off.

You are correct, newbies should be taught best practice and learn from someone with experience, a guide is a good option if they don't have traddie friends. I learnt at the Hann school of climbing, if I do things incorrectly then it's his fault

On the Magnetron: Just need to mortgage the house and those will be my new autolockers want want want

_________________
Happy climbing
Nic

Wow Old Fart, you really are an anonymous, tedious asshole.

Bet you're the second who clips into the cordalette because he only ever seconds.