If you are interested click on the link...


http://snort-charlesedelstein.blogspot. ... rship.html

wtf How do people expect to get away with lies like this. It's there in plain site bolted to the wall - do they think people won't climb the route, or do they just not care once their article is published. I just don't get it.

Snort its not about sponsorship, its about foreign climbers. I am vehemently opposed to foreigners opening new routes in SA for the following reasons:

1] Its not their crag so they don't take pride in what they produce - ie they won't be held accountable for a sh1t job. Also applies to litter.
2] They have limited time so often rush the job.
3] They are ill prepared (8mm bolts) and don't know the local bolting requirements - some poor dude has to go back and fix their cr@ppy job.
4] Writing up a new classic route in SA in a European magazine is great - fame & fortune - regardless of how cr@p you bolted it.
5] They have no idea of access / bolting issues, and even if they did, why would they care about the long term implications?

Many examples:

a] Bastille @ Rocklands
b] Wolfberg cracks
c] Euro route at Milner
d] Berlin wall
e] I am not allowed to mention any Spanish routes else I might get a peg hammer in my head

Its up to us locals to let foreigners know that they need to respect local ethics and culture.

_________________
AndyDavies

Andy Stu indeed. Thanks. I have been feeling like a lone and very lonely voice shouting into the wind and farting against thunder.

Fortunately very few of the bolts need to be replaced as they are unnecessary. The pitches the Germans opened to the halfway ledge does involve good climbing mostly. I shall go and do Time Warp next week with Tristan and then rap from the halfway ledge down the route and remove the unnecessary bolts and try and try replace the "necessary"ones with fixed trad gear.

easy on guys. let's not get all xenophobic about this. It's not about foreigners it's about respect for a place's traditions, ethics and values. Foreigners have done great things to push the standards of our climbing. especially trad, but sport as well. We should encourage foreigners to open routes here within the bounds of each crag's prevailing values.

Likewise for sure there are plenty examples of south africans doing unthinking things at our own crags. Having said that, andy's points are well made in that people who do not see themselves as custodians of an area's heritage have little motivation to make sure they don't leave a mess. I do find it remarkably arrogant for people to show up at a crag and start blasting away with a bolt gun without having climbed sufficient other routes to have a notion of the heritage of the place.

i really think a lot of this is our own fault in that we have not communicated well with the broader climbing community acceptable practice at certain of our crags, largely because we haven't agreed ourselves.

I think this process is what Hilton tried to start in previous threads, and we (quite urgently) need to get it to a place where we have some kind of policy to which foreign or otherwise ignorant climbers can be pointed.

I personally believe the web is not the best place for such a discussion - i think the interested and affected parties should gather in person and discuss - possibly with suggestions from people who can't make it in person.

thanks snort n joe for checking out the route and hopefully fixing it up in the next few weeks. hopefully you can find trad gear that doesn't need to be left fixed to replace the bolts. Removing bolts is a poor substitute for making sure they didn't go in in the first place.

Perhaps we could get some perspective from the german guys who opened the routes. Would be useful to hear their side of the story. might help us prevent it happening again. You guys who know/met them got a contact?

_________________
Adam Roff

I know that Adam is being very diplomatic but from where I sit this is the perspective that I get from the germans that bolted the routes.

They used 8 mm bolts that are not suited to SA conditions because this is what they were sponsored 8 mm bolts.

A while back a climber died in Australia because european climbers bolted a route with the bolts (8 mm) that were not suited to the area.

It seems that no lessons were learnt from this, if these climbers could not care about peoples safety or their lives they certainly do not care about our enviroment or style or self imposed "rules"/ethics.

So while I can't climb at Yellowwood because the grades are beyond me, I can still get pissed off about persons coming here and stuffing it up for us. Sometimes we need to get angry to get results. I am of the opinion that the german climbers will not even give a damb that their route gets chopped. They already have their article and glory. We need this to stop this happening before we become the toilet of the world to get dumped on by glory seeking, dont have the balls to do it without a bolt ladder, don't give a damb except to get my picture in a magazine and get paid for it europeans. This is not a dig at sports climbers or guys from europe who play nice.

_________________
Fat men are harder to kidnap

I feel honoured to have someone as passionate as you guarding these crags. If we had more people like you around, we would not have, for instance, the littering problem at the sports crags - someone would always see the offender and be there to dissuade him / her with repetitive percussive action.

I hope this spirit of keeping (and raising?!) high standards rubs of around the country. Why lower the standards to suit the masses?

Well done Snort for taking the effort to investigate and confirm what you probably suspected to start off with. I personally know many Euro climbers, and Germans in particular, who would be equally appalled to hear about what you witnessed. As a constructive suggestion, would it not be of value to write about your experience to the German magazine and sponsors in question? I don't think it is too late to discredit these guys and if you do so they are less likely to become role models to others.

Good on you Snort with all your "baggage" your heart is in the right place and you are definitely the most enthusiastic climber I know(I'd climb with you any day maybe not everyday ha ha).
It makes me pretty sad to read about what's happened at yellow wood and fair play to the people that warned this would happen. Very well put Adam I'd have to say I agree with you.. and I agree with Danny lets get a letter sent to the German climbing website/ magazine etc.

Hi Stephen, thanks for the support. Which Stephen are you? I have a dilemma with the rap route I placed. The first time I went down it I did it on trad gear. I now have the option of improving it removing the bolts and replacing it with trad gear or getting rid of it altogether.

The Germans have left what amounts to a rap route down their route at 30m intervals. At each stance there are 2 bolts and one has a mailon on it. Willem and I removed about 20m of 6 and 8mm cord from round a boulder at the summit probably left by the Germans. (Other peoples money again). I find my rap route extremely user friendly because I know it. I intend leaving in situ for now while I clean up the mess. It is useful for hauling too.

But once my work is done I shall have no problem removing it, improving it with trad gear or whatever consensus is reached by people who know the scene and climb there!

Newborn also has a rap route down it from the halfway ledge.

At present there are 3 rap routes from the halfway ledge and 2 from the top. (It is not practical to rap down Newborn as it overhangs too much).

Agree that respect for an area and its history is paramount. In April last year I went to yellowwood for the first time. I scratched out all the old Journal articles and RD's on the web, so before I went there I knew where all the routes went, who opened them and when. But I didnt respect the place enough to repeat any existing routes before trying to open a new one. After two dismal attempts and retreats we then tried Prime Time, and got totally spanked on the easy initial pitches. By the end of the trip we were well psyched to get up No More Bells and actually top out. The point is we should have paid our dues and done Smalblaar and then maybe tried Armageddon Time and Time Warp before even thinking of looking for something new. It would have taught us the feel and ethics of the area and forced us to up our game to the standards of the wall. Fortunately we didnt place bolts, so only our egos got damaged. I've learnt my lesson and next time I go to Yellowwood it will be to repeat and learn, not to make a statement with a new route. Big walls are different to dedicated sport crags. There's no issue with a foreigner heading to boven, climbing one or two routes and then bolting something new (as long as the bolts are safe!).

Adam, I concur with your position, foreigners in conjunction with locals is a workable solution. And yes we do need a well documented policy that everyone has bought into.

Snort, fixed trad gear and tat is no different to bolts. Tat is however more unsightly and degrades. One day someone is gonna get killed when some old smelly tat breaks.

Happy weekend people!!!!!!!!

_________________
AndyDavies

Well done for getting out to the crag and checking the situation out, yours is not actually as lonely a voice as you think, we talk back at you here because no-one was doing anything! So again good one for physically checking it out!

Please chop all unnecessary bolts/pegs - my vote.

The wall only needs one Rap route, decide which is the best one and remove the rest, even if this means removing the bolts you placed as a descent route/anchors for a proposed route. Lets not have bolted stances at all if there is good natural gear (keep it pure as safely possible), thats part of the committment you make when starting up a big trad wall, if you have to bail you are going to leave gear behind, all the more incentive to succeed!

Keep an open mind that perhaps there is scope for fully bolted sport routes in that area. Not a lot though!! I too would hate to see the wall over-run, but there are some lines that are like wow!

Lets publish our ethics and standard practices worldwide so ppl know what the score here is. Yes action speaks louder than words, but action with out guidance and direction can often go awry.

Snort, we may go at you from time to time, but we arent against you, in fact I think there is a fair consensus locally as to how the different branches of the sport should be conducted. I guess my only call (which may go against the grain) is that sport can certainly co-exist with trad and that areas do not need to be designated as one or the other provided there are controls in place governing development and clear and prompt communication between all of the local activists. Again thanks for this post! Constructive real discussions need to happen and this is just the place for them.

I shall ask Tristan to connect with them and get their side of the story.... Or get their email address for me....

Hi Snort (posted originally on your blog - cool blog!)

Ant Hall and I were at Yellowood two weeks ago. We climbed the first half of Armageddon on the 1st day and on the second day the truly extraordinary new route, Firestart (22/23), recently opened by Rob Zipplies and Malcolm Gowans on the Chess Pieces.

Ant and I struggled on Armageddon (we always do!). Slightly off route on the second pitch we encountered some of the bolts you mentioned at the stances. I completely echo your sentiments, they are completely out of place and unnecessary, and for me ruined the feel of the rock. Even worse to hear about the mess near the start of the route. There are also the bolts you placed for the rap-route from the top. We had the description you wrote somewhere about how to tackle that descent, but were weary of doing so given your caution about the raps being longer than 60 meters. Do you have any plans to rectify the situation?

Personally I fail to understand why these guys who are clearly competent climbers did what they did. Yellowwood itself is awesome with more (very challenging) trad potential, AND there are heaps of beautiful unclimbed faces with abundant trad gear just around the corner on the Chess Pieces. Nothing would have stopped them from making the same mess there too!

Go for it, take the bolts out! Happy to support in whatever way possible

Stephen (Davis)

No problems from my side with chopping the bolts, however I am curious as to why you would chop a bolt just to replace it with fixed trad gear? Do you mean a piton? Because fixed trad gear, in my mind anyway, is potentially more dangerous.

I would tend to agree with Stu, why have any fixed gear if you can place it ok whilst climbing? I think a fixed nut with a sling hanging off it is more of an eyesore than a bolt and is potentially lethal when the sling ages, so my 2c is leave those out of the picture.

Fixed natural gear should only be there if it is near impossible to place it when on lead, or if there is no gear and a serious/death fall at a cruxy section then a peg or bolt is appropriate. But this should be the only time a bolt gets placed. Fixed gear at stances just so you can retreat is a bit of a cop-out in my mind.

Lotta good stuff here!

Yesterday Bruce Daniel and I climbed Time Warp - the first proper amphitheatre route put up by Dave Cheesmond and Tony Dick in 1977 and first freed by Chris Lomax and Kevin Smith in 1982. This was first time for me after a failure with Paul Fatti, John Moss and Doug Jamieson in 1990. Bruce climbed it 20 years ago with Bobby Woods. We have both done many trips to Yellowwood including having repeated one of the new German routes recently (Fighting Against the Dark Side of Gravity, grade 26).

On this topic, some further info to throw into the pot:
1. Time Warp's first stance is shared by Newborn and has two bolts with chains. I don't think Cheesy and Tony place them.
2. Time Warp's third stance is shared with the German route Your Mother His Face and has a bolt and a piton joined with cord. Ditto for Tony and Cheesy.
3. Time Warp's superb "Pendulum Pitch" (grade 21), P13, stances on monster flakes with good seating. YMHF intersects it here. 1 bolt and 1 piton joined by cord.
4. Time Warp's easy P14 (where Prime Time heads through and up) ends with 1 bolt and 1 piton joined with cord.
5. Time Warp's scramble-off traverse ends with a scramble ramp. At the top - 2 bolts with chains

Time Warp comments:
Much harder than the 21 grade suggests;
Complicated route-finding;
Very lekker good traverses;
Very serious up high with long committing run-outs on dubious rock
Killer afternoon sun
Monster day trip

Finally, I confess that I had every intention of chopping Snorty's bolted rap route. No longer. Bruce and I concur that Yellowwood needs a good rap route. Its a helluva thing climbing hard stuff with a big backpack containing 4 litres of water, assorted paraphenalia plus four big shoes. Snorty's rap route should be refined and improved. We did a big scramble descent to get back to the car by 3am and home after 24 hours going non-stop.

Corrections and additions to 5 points above:

1. Time Warp's 2nd stance is shared by Newborn and has two bolts with chains. I don't think Cheesy and Tony placed them.
2. Time Warp's third pitch rounds a small roof. Newborn converges here and has two bolts on the original route.
3. Time Warp's 4th stance is shared by the German route Your Mother His Face and has a new bolt and a piton joined with cord.
4. Time Warp's superb "Pendulum Pitch" (P13 grade 21), stances on monster flakes with good seating. YMHF intersects it here. 1 bolt and 1 piton joined by cord.
5. Time Warp's easy P14 (where Prime Time heads through and up) ends with 1 bolt and 1 piton joined with cord.
6. Time Warp's scramble-off traverse ends with a scramble ramp. At the top - 2 bolts with chains

Sigh, we seem to go round in circles here. Adam is right, the web is not the best medium for this but every time I suggest a discussion, nobody wants to discuss...

@SNORT, I shall pass on contact details when I see you thursday.

And, to correct a misconception: Wussel (aka "the Germans") are not pro / sponsored climbers (though they did receive a gear contribution).

What they are:
- young
- boundlessly enthusiastic
- not local

Now, before you flame me, remember that if I had MY way there would be no bolts AT ALL in the big hills

But the minute the area is not a "trad only" area then the grey area is open for personal interpretation. Hilton does not want bolts but can justify a rap-route because it suites him and his audience. If you are going to make the argument about style and refer to the original ascent as a base, then be consistent. Tony and Dave didn't need a rap route, why should "we".
Likewise what "they" did was their interpretation (the difference between reported and actual could do with an explanation, mind) of our own rule-less "ethics".
- rule-less: because "WE" bolted a full sport route there, AND more than one rap route.
- "ethics" because "WE" bend our ethics to suite us. There are countless examples of this, I'm not going to get into this

On a different note, 8mm bolts have been UIAA tested and are suitable in compact/hard quartzite. Whoever used the Australian bolt-failure analogy, implies - by the same logic - that there are a number of bad-bolters in the Cape...after all we've had a few failures of 10mm expansion bolts. Maybe we should be using 15mm?

And lastly. "why have any fixed gear if u can place it on lead".
- what Dave B or Clinton can place is very different to what I can place (maybe a bad eg ). So it is left to the 1st ascensionist.
- the fact that SNORT feels a 'fixed' piece COULD be justified, in part, justifies a bolt - by someone else's standards.

So we are left with a grey-area being seen differently through different eyes. Not terribly different from how the views have changed from 1st ascent to modern ascents accepting convenient rap stations...

There are X respondents to this thread alone, and the differing views are varied. The pro-bolters / sport climbers are not replying to this because they have long since seen the pointlessness of arguing here - they are always wrong and never heard. And more drills are being used to "speak" while you guys write threads.

Again I stress that I do no agree with them bolters, but until "you guys" acknowledge their existence and their mantra's, "we" will be having these tantrum's ad nausium.

Open invite: if one of the contibutors / self-proffessed custodians will host a braai/whiskey evening to discuss, I would welcome that....

Below is a picture of bolts placed on a trad route, here in SA. The 1st ascensionist (Mike Scott et al) certainly did not place bolts to get off (you are obliged to rap), local SAFFA's certainly placed these. They happen to be 30m off the deck, allowing for rap's with a 60m rope. Convenient really...

Tristan, you are defending the indefensible i.e. foreign climbers that you directly or indirectly have a business relationship with; who went and climbed at a place recommended by you and Jeremy who bolted Newborn and he now has a vested interest in a bolted route at Yellowwood that did not exist before.


Correct me if I am wrong but I doubt Jeremy has climbed a trad route at YW for at least 5 years and maybe as long as 14. I do not recall him going there in the 14 years that I have been in CT.

The other person involved in referring these guys to Yellowwood is Lenard who has not climbed for some years now and not at YW for more than 3 or more years.,

Nobody bothered to contact the current users and it is not as if there has not been noise about it. When I did "Down Time" there was criticism of the technical aspects of its existence but not whether it should exist or not. I am not defending its existence and will remove it or improve on it if that is the consensus of the local users. It is $@#*ing hard work to put a rap route up.


Ethics and practices change with time and consensus of the people involved. Nobody involved that recommended YW to these guys has climbed a trad route there in recent years, the Germans did not have the respect to climb an existing route and nothing you say can defend what they did and why they did it.

I do not know anyone of any age that is as passionate about climbing or has more enthusiasm than I. So young Germans with boundless enthusiasm doesn't cut it with me. They need to be taught, mentored and managed by people without a vested interest in commerce or bolting when it comes to a place like YW.

This was lacking in this instance

Finally, I know a few young keen South Africans that would happily go up to YW and open trad routes without a drill; they speak and go with the poeple that know the place and climb there currently. Joe Mohl, Farrell Davids, Dave Vallet, Anthony Hall, Willem Le Roux, Neels Havenga annd his mate Josh have all been there recently to name a few. They are just as keen.......

Local is lekker......

Name-dropping is sooooo, last year...

As I mentioned before - my conscience is clean here WRT what I did or did not say or do. The ethics at YW were vague the moment Sean bolted. If you had taken the time to purge then, then there'd be no problem.

Whether or not I have a business relation with one of the visitor's employers is irrelevant, and rather insulting - but I'm growing a thicker skin. I have chaperoned more forigners around SA in the last few years than you might think - of them 60% are tied to my "competitors". Because my local competitors are too gdamn lame to actually do anything FOR the sport - rather just make $$ off of it! This is not about business, this is about climbing.

WRT this forum, the only reason that I continue to debate this is to offer the readers of your threads a semblance of balance. I don't care that bolting a rap route is hard work - it DOES NOT justify you using a drill. It's hypocritical. In the same breath, it's hard work opening new routes...does that justify a drill?

"YOU do not recall Jeremy going to YW in 14 years"? @#xK me, but I didn't know we needed to broadcast our movements.

Here are the "facts"
- ppl read about newborn via internet
- ppl talk to traveling SAFAS in Europe, Newborn gets mentioned
- 3 guys come out and open a new route. They use bolts, they don't deny that

Now where it gets tricky:
- self-imposed custodians don't get consulted
- there are no, never have been, access issues/procedures
- there are already bolts on the wall
- current activists in the area have not taken the time to publicize their routes / projects (so how is anyone supposed to know)

Now take this senario: http://www.climbing.com/exclusive/features/dogofthunder/

- if you open the link above, the first thing that u see is a picture of Blouberg...WITH A HANGER in plain view
- now this is on climbing.com - if u notice the link. How many people will think that its cool to pitch up and drill at BB?

The same thing could have happened there, would you still be as vehement?

Just so I understand. What, exactly, is the issue here?

- that there are bolts at YW?
- the manner in which the bolters conducted themselves - in your eyes?
- the fact that Euro's get sponsored gear to colonize Africa?
- that nobody thought of you when they came out?

I repeat:

1. It is disrespectful and in my view unethical to do a first ascent in at an estbalished place without confirming what the ethics are. One cannot do that without doing an existing route. You have not addressed that yet!

2. I object intensely to the shit at the base of the wall. You have not addressed that yet!

3. You imply all local young climbers are not keen etc...?

4. You state your competitors are lame. They do nothing for the sport? I happen to be one. What's that got to do with local climbers and ethics anyway? C'mon Tristan.....

5. I am hypocritical? I state

6. Blouberg. Go and climb any route on Blouberg and remove any fixed gear you want. I prefer it. I intend to remove 3 bolts there. Only 3! I have placed about 40. Dave Birkett, Alex Honold, Sonny Trotter,Clint, anyone can take out any bolt they like. In fact I shall remove them if they say it's unneccessary.

Other than Dog of Thunder, (I did not select which bolts to place on the pitches harder than 26) all the routes were done ground up without bolts initially on lead!

On Dog of Thunder (and Clint and I have both lead that pitch), the scariest pitch is a 23 with only the smallest alien in 10m of climbing well below the crux. We thought about a bolt....

Am happy to remove all the bolts on Blouberg if anyone is prepared to climb those routes without.

Hi Tristan

Am I correct in assuming that they have used 8 mm expansion bolts. Am I correct in assuming that no one else uses these bolts in the area. If you visit this forum or ask any of the people who bolt routes what bolts to use in SA would 8 mm expansion bolt be your answer. Is there any thread on this forum that even metions that 8 mm bolts should be used.

If so then I apologise for my remarks if not I stand by what I said.

_________________
Fat men are harder to kidnap

Perhaps the Anchor Replacement Fund page needs to be a little more prominent

_________________
Climb ZA - Administrator

Tristan/Greg H./et al

There isn't inaction on this subject. There has been a lot of action. If you're not a sunburned, exhausted, Yellowwood-regular, then you are probably not in the loop on this one.

My approach has been -
firstly, to throw the subject wide open for the benefit of the whole community;
secondly, to establish facts as new information comes to light (and that takes huge effort, conducted primarily by Bruce, Snorty and me) and to share this information;
thirdly, to involve the main protagonists before reverting to the broader community; and
fourthly, to get general buy-in to a Western Cape Bolting Policy for broad publication.
That sound okay?

Furthermore, some of us have been moving gear up to Yellowwood for the work that is to come. The job of the ADF (Anchor Dis-placement Fund) is a monster. Consider the logistics on that big face. Just moving ADF kit up has been a gruesome trial. After each trip I need 5 days to recover.

Moving on - the issue of bolts or no-bolts on Yellowwood:

All young children, and the majority of adults, can only see in black or white and not in shades of grey. That's unfortunate but a reality. And the truth is that there is almost nothing in our lives that is black or white. To put this differently, Fundamentalism is the philosophical position of being unable to adjust one's position when confronted with new information. Notwithstanding all my many faults, I don't suffer this one.

So what is the issue? Yellowwood could (almost) be restored to its original unviolated condition. But:
1. this would undo Newborn which is a pretty damn amazing existing route;
2. this would cause great distress to the Newborn ascentionists;
3. this would undo the German routes;
4. this would be a task of unimaginable proportions.

It is my view that Yellowwood is suited to the Trapibo Style (ie. trad gear foremost, pitons where necessary, bolts where essential). I ask that you think not about extreme positions but rather about a position that is sensible and appropriate for this excellent big-wall venue.

Regarding the rap route issue:

When Tony and Cheesy made Time Warp, they weren't free-climbing trad at grades of 25 and 26. They couldn't. They didn't have the gear. We do, so we can. But we can't climb 15-pitch grade 25 trad routes carrying a big backpack (but at 21 we can). With this new information should we change our position regarding a rap route that we can descend without approach shoes? I'm no stranger to the scramble descent. Done it a few times recently just as Tony and Cheesy did it. But I think a rap descent is merited.

Lastly, I would caution that one cannot have a well-considered opinion if one hasn't topped out on the Amphitheatre.

More another day...

mmmm. i haven't been to yellowwood yet so do not have any merits to suggest a particular course of action...... but since this is an open forum and i can contribute any way i feel like, i will take a moment to pretend i'm the climbing ombud:
1. go chop the german routes - 8mm bolts is just not on
2. leave newborn as it is as a concession (route being many years old and all that)
3. publish on climb.co.za bolting rules for yellowwood (& other venues) + contact details for custodians to check if you are on track when intending to bolt in restricted areas. rules to be determined by "elders" who frequent the area and will be open for debate / objection by climbing community
4. rap route(s) and furthern bolting will be decided by the custodians but decisons will remain open for public debate / objection / whatever

maybe we can all then move on? or will this debate rage forever?

We were all expecting to read of a chop fest at YW over the weekend....but its just more of the same bleat, bleat, bleat.

We understand all the points. We are fully educated. But now its time for action. If its really wrong & it really matters please can the next post have pics of the remains of the offending fixed gear...in a bag on the ground.