Booty Talks

Post here for all your gear questions, rants and raves. Ask about gear before you buy it and find out what others are using. NOTE: this forum is NOT for gear sales.

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Warren G
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Booty Talks

Post by Warren G » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:49 pm

When I started climbing I was told there are a few rules to random gear one comes across, however I have noticed a relaxing of these rules, and I would like some clarity:

1. Fully equipped route (sport or even trad): clearly this is intentional, leave the gear as you found it, but you are welcome to use it at your own risk.

2. One or two pieces on a route- sport: look at the context and decide appropriate actions. Maybe take it, message your friends in the community and try find the owner, if no luck the gear is yours. Personally I have a very dim view of an abandoned draw left on a glue in bolt, as one can easily thread thru it safely and recover the gear below. A leader holds the risk here, and they should be willing to either down climb, or aid thru if threading is not possible. If gear must be left behind: clearly a single biner will suffice.

3. One or two pieces on a trad route: Fair game to anyone who comes across it. If it is a valuable item (IE cam) compose a vague post on this forum and see if the owner comes forward, but you don't have to post, rather this is a moral choice. Perfectly acceptable to expect some kind of reward.

4. Tat/trad stances: intentional, leave alone, maybe even add to it: few things scarier than having sun beaten tat fail on you- I speak from experience!

Instead I am seeing people expecting abandoned nuts to be returned to them! No, that isn't the game, as I have it the second's job is to retrieve the gear, should they not succeed the leader should try, should they fail to remove it then they should try return there ASAP before someone else lays claim. For me a part of the game of being a second is this risk of having to replace the stuck piece. If you must post your embarrassment on the forum then clearly offering a reward for the piece is the least you could do!
Sandbagging is a dirty game

DieGesteweldeKat
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by DieGesteweldeKat » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:45 am

Warren G wrote:When I started climbing I was told there are a few rules to random gear one comes across, however I have noticed a relaxing of these rules, and I would like some clarity:

1. Fully equipped route (sport or even trad): clearly this is intentional, leave the gear as you found it, but you are welcome to use it at your own risk.

2. One or two pieces on a route- sport: look at the context and decide appropriate actions. Maybe take it, message your friends in the community and try find the owner, if no luck the gear is yours. Personally I have a very dim view of an abandoned draw left on a glue in bolt, as one can easily thread thru it safely and recover the gear below. A leader holds the risk here, and they should be willing to either down climb, or aid thru if threading is not possible. If gear must be left behind: clearly a single biner will suffice.

3. One or two pieces on a trad route: Fair game to anyone who comes across it. If it is a valuable item (IE cam) compose a vague post on this forum and see if the owner comes forward, but you don't have to post, rather this is a moral choice. Perfectly acceptable to expect some kind of reward.

4. Tat/trad stances: intentional, leave alone, maybe even add to it: few things scarier than having sun beaten tat fail on you- I speak from experience!

Instead I am seeing people expecting abandoned nuts to be returned to them! No, that isn't the game, as I have it the second's job is to retrieve the gear, should they not succeed the leader should try, should they fail to remove it then they should try return there ASAP before someone else lays claim. For me a part of the game of being a second is this risk of having to replace the stuck piece. If you must post your embarrassment on the forum then clearly offering a reward for the piece is the least you could do!
Seeing as we live in a modern world with this thing called the interwebs and climbing forums, how about you decide, today I'll not be a huge dick, put up a post saying I found gear at location X, if no reply in say two or three days it is fair game. :thumright

Damage
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by Damage » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:32 am

The way I see it the climbing community is so small all ready why would you want to claim other guys gear
just give it back , drink the beer ,and bask in your superior removal/climbing skills if that's your thing:0)

I have seen guys giving guys grief on the forum for leaving gear
protection (gear ) is just that, if you need to leave it to get off do it !
we don't need dead /injured climbers just so that they can avoid a internet troll
/d
ps: there is "karma " attached to everything happy climbing on your "stolen" gear

Guardian
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by Guardian » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:04 pm

And here I was just impressing everyone with how honest and cool the climbing community and forum are for saving me a few hundred Rand.

Sure, we abandoned a cheap old nut on an easy old climb with the sun setting, but I think asking on the forum is different than "expecting gear returned because we're noobs". Also, since I'm not such a great follower/leader as you I am not really all the embarrassed about admitting we left gear.

As for 2) Here's an embarrassing revelation, it took me a few years of sport climbing to click you can dismantle one draw to leave two biners :D (haven't had to yet though, also, threading a single glue in bolt isn't for me).

Here is a moral dilemma for you: A climber kindly returned the nut we lost on Africa Crag, except, it wasn't ours. Close though.
So someone has our BD stopper #11 and we have someone's BD stopper #8.
I decided against posting this intricacy and keeping the #8 because no one asked on the forum for it. But by al means PM if it's yours.
There is nothing more beautiful than a well dressed alpine butterfly.

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emile
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by emile » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:52 pm

Guardian wrote:But by al means PM if it's yours.
I think you'll have to post that in the "Lost in found" for it to count towards your karma deficit ;-)

Warren G
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by Warren G » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:53 pm

Don't get me wrong, I post when I find stuff that I think should/could be returned to the owner, but I also recognize laziness when I see it, and I don't believe laziness should be rewarded.

For the record: A few weeks ago it was posted that someone (the person will remain anonymous) got a X4 stuck on an easy route on TM. Knowing exactly where it was I went for an abseil and recovered it for them. During the happy conversation between us the person admitted that they had a second piece left on Lions Head, and so we agreed to go fetch it together that week, and did so. The person was delighted at my efforts and rewarded me accordingly. The reason I started this thread was to establish minimum acceptable standards, but by all means one ought to try return valuable gear to owners where practical but if I find a scrappy old biner at the base of a classic route I know it is not worth the effort of returning it to that person, and could never expect that from anyone should that gear be mine.

I highly prize my gear as it was dear to purchase, and I am not about to depend on the good will of the climbing community return it to me unless it is completely beyond my control to get it back myself- and even then I certainly cannot expect anyone to return it to me, in spite of my pleading for someone to help. I am humble enough to admit to by belayer that I can't do this move, nor aid thru, and so the only honest option is to down climb: I was willing to take that fall when I climbed there, why would I not be willing to fall to retrieve with all my gear? Personally I consider it humiliating to abandon gear in the same way as it's embarrassing to be rescued personally- I would know, I've done both!

Yes, I was harsh on Davidlev for leaving a draw at Fawlty Towers because I value my gear more than that- and he was going to get wet on the walk out anyway! If he wasn't willing to thread thru a single bolt to retrieve it: well I must ask why he is willing to take lead falls above those bolts.

Climbing is an adventure sport, and for me "Adventure" implies risk, in whatever form it may take.
Sandbagging is a dirty game

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Wes
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by Wes » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:54 am

Seriously, why are you making such a big deal out of this. It is pretty simple:

If it isn't yours, leave it there, unless you plan to get it back to the owner. :thumleft:

Stop trying to justify stealing other people gear.

Wow.

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Rastaman
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by Rastaman » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:19 am

Totally agree with Wes.
There is no justifiable reason to keep any gear no matter its value.
Warren you seem to be saying that its OK to keep someone elses kit if it is below a certain value?
Also not sure if people leave gear behind due to laziness. Inexperience, epics, running late yes, but pure laziness, not so sure.

Warren G
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by Warren G » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:03 am

Two things- further to what I have already stated above:

1. The majority of climbers are NOT on this forum, nor are they known to other climbers that know me, making it impossible to know who owns the found gear.

2. Majority of the gear I have found (yes I am assuming my found gear is a statistical norm) seems to have been there an awfully long time. Should I post on a minority used forum "found gear, on X Route, possibly been there years"?!
Sandbagging is a dirty game

smb
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by smb » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:06 am

Wes wrote:Seriously, why are you making such a big deal out of this. It is pretty simple:

If it isn't yours, leave it there, unless you plan to get it back to the owner. :thumleft:

Stop trying to justify stealing other people gear.

Wow.
Summarised perfectly. Thank you.

Old Smelly
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by Old Smelly » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:02 am

I think you guys are deliberately misunderstanding Warren and thus hacking him off...

The reality is - you find abandoned gear - you post on the forum ...tell your friends whatever...

That's it - no one claims it - what are you to do?

generally I will have an overall mistrust for found gear so it is unlikely to become my best piece on my rack - I would rather that the person who knows the item gets it back.

BUT if you are going to leave your gear scattered all over a climb and I come along and get it - well you had best ask nicely for it -you abandoned it so it is clearly not theft AND if you did it because you didn't know what you were doing THEN you should ask NICELY

If you had some other reason then just say so -you will never know if someone found your gear unless they publicise it anyway
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

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Justin
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by Justin » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:36 am

Many many years ago, before I even knew a climbing community really existed... I found a cam, as a bonus it even had biner on it (cams were still pretty new in ZA at that time - I was probably 12 years old).
I did not consider finding the owner. The cam was my first piece of gear and was mine!! :pirat:
The upside, finding this cam expanded my climbing career :thumleft:
Climb ZA - Administrator
justin@climbing.co.za

Hector
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by Hector » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:50 am

I found a piton lying in the grass at Blouberg last weekend. It looks like its been there a while but its still in great condition. Let me know if its yours. I'll buy you a beer and you can tell me what it was like climbing Wall of White Light with hammer and pitons. I'm keeping the piton though!

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dirktalma
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by dirktalma » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:38 pm

Two things- further to what I have already stated above:

1. The majority of climbers are NOT on this forum, nor are they known to other climbers that know me, making it impossible to know who owns the found gear.
I believe this is not true. If either one of the parties decide to ask on the forum, the chances are good that someone reading the post may be the link between the two parties. Using "majority" and "impossible" in that sentence doesn't make sense.

Warren, it is a personal choice whether you want to return or place a post on the web regarding gear you found. Please do remember that you live in a country called South Africa, which has laws against theft. If it's mine (and I can prove it) and I left it somewhere (by mistake or on purpose) and you took it not intending to return it, it is theft. Finish en klaar.

Personally, I like returning people's gear. It's great to meet new climbers and have a chat. Usually its a lekker chat about the route and what happened to either party. Like Hector said. If you feel that it's too much of a mission to return the gear to that person, leave the gear somewhere on the path walking out or at the gym. When someone asks for it then explain.
I enjoy other people's company, but maybe you are different?
3. One or two pieces on a trad route: Fair game to anyone who comes across it. If it is a valuable item (IE cam) compose a vague post on this forum and see if the owner comes forward, but you don't have to post, rather this is a moral choice.
VS.
I highly prize my gear as it was dear to purchase
So you care about your own gear. How do you then assume the owner of the nut or sling (invaluable) does not care for theirs? Do you measure the cost of the nut to the whatsapp data (or time) you use to send the person a message?
Perfectly acceptable to expect some kind of reward.
Why? Did you climb the route to retrieve the gear or because you enjoy climbing?

Its up to the person, but I always feel pretty good after doing the right thing.

Warren G
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Re: Booty Talks

Post by Warren G » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:00 pm

I hear you Dirk, so can we agree to this: leaving your stuff on a mountain exposes you to the possibility of loosing it- if you value your stuff don't leave it on the mountain. Branding your gear with your contact details should improve the possibilities of it getting back to you- but still not as much as NOT LEAVING IT THERE in the first place. I am a big advocate of prevention over cure, and most epics I know about are with people who agree with these sentiments, and spent the time ensuring they got their gear back.

You cannot expect everyone to be on this forum, or even following it regularly to notice who abandoned what & where. Having said this if one values one's gear enough, one would expect them to explore all avenues of recovery. I feel I am repeating myself here, but then it seems this is necessary.

I started this thread to propose minimum standards, and also to remind people that this topic is very much dependent on the morals of those around you, as well as your own.
Sandbagging is a dirty game

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