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Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:41 am
by Ghaznavid
Ok - this question should secure me the award for most stupid question ever asked on the forum, but I'd rather ask and not, you know, die on a crag thus earning an award for most unnecessary climbing casualty...

Ok - I just got some Black Diamond Freewire draws (photo from Mountain Mail Order's website)
381030_freewire.jpg
381030_freewire.jpg (8.98 KiB) Viewed 2833 times
The orange end has a straight jacket and the silver end doesn't. The advice I was given when I bought them was that the end that gets clipped into the rope must always be the same so that the damage caused by bolts and gear rubbing against it (i.e. metal on metal) will always be on the same end. Thus when you fall the rough side won't tear your rope to shreds. Sounds like solid advice.

The part I am unsure of is which side goes into the bolt. I was told that it doesn't matter and that convention is the silver side (because ropes are usually not white/silver, thus it is easier to remember, rope of colour goes into biner of colour). Now this goes against my logic - the straight jacket is clearly there to prevent cross loading and thus surely it goes into the bolt/gear, not the rope?

Advice will be greatly appreciated :eye:

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:36 am
by ScottS
The rubber "straight jacket" is there to prevent the rope end biner from rotating and changing it's orientation (turning upside down). This is important to avoid f^&king around during those desperate and sketchy redpoint clips.

In this case silver end into the bolt/protection makes most sense, to most people. That said, I guess you could argue that it reduces the chances of cross-loading on a bolt and do the opposite...

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:06 pm
by Ghaznavid
Thanks :nemo:

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:29 pm
by Forket
The answer has been given, just to add some info, the loose end(one that goes into bolt) is loose so that cross loading at point of maximum force(at the bolt, metal on metal) cannot take place. It is also loose so that the rope cant force the dogbone(material) to twist and unclip the bolt end of the draw:)

eT
love this science

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:39 pm
by Ghaznavid
Ok - that makes sense. I guess as it's about to become loaded it shifts at the point of least resistance - being the loop on the silver biner. Thus it shifts into the right position first.

Good point on the twisting :thumleft:

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:51 pm
by Tristan
Gate orientation - both gates the same or gates apposed?

GO

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:40 pm
by Nic Le Maitre
You had to ask, hey Tristan?

<sits back, opens popcorn>

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 3:26 pm
by Rastaman
Definitely apposed.

Not sure why, that's how I've always climbed.

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 3:36 pm
by Ghaznavid
Rastaman wrote:Definitely apposed.

Not sure why, that's how I've always climbed.
:lol: at least you are honest!

Reminds me of an old story. A mother was teaching her 8 year old how to make a pot roast. She told her daughter that you always chop a piece off the edge of the roast before cooking it. Her daughter asked why and she said she didn't know. That night when the mother was talking to her mother (the girl's grandmother), she asked why and her mother didn't know why either. The next day the grandmother went to visit her mother (the girl's great grandmother). It turns out that she cut off the end because she didn't have a big enough pot!

I go with both pointing in the same directions. 3 reasons:
1. That's how I was taught
2. That's how my quickdraws came
3. Ceaser at Bush 'n Bundu told me that

I understand the direction on the one that plugs into the bolt, I think the rope could end up resting on the gate while you are climbing (assuming you do the in under up over threading of the rope and face the gate against the direction you are going).

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 3:46 pm
by dannypinkas
Of some relevance to this debate.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3521&hilit=Quickdraw+failure

The above failure only happened because the straight gate of the DMM Mamba was fixed (sewn in) by the manufacturer in the opposite direction to the bent gate.

Statistically speaking, if you wish to minimise the chances of cross loading both gates should be facing the same direction and only the bentgate or the gate into which you clip the rope should be "fixed".

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 3:49 pm
by ant
Re orientation:

It's mostly semantics, but the best beta on this has boiled down to:

- Gates facing same way: Ever so slightly stronger, as the line of force (along the spines) is straighter, or best distributed along the sling
- Gates facing opposite: Slightly weaker as above (but seriously, magnitude is small and there are huge margins) but for convenience, you'll find that when stretching (left or right) to place the draw:
- on the bolt, draw facing you is easier to make the clip
- on the rope, gate facing away is easier to clip and is the safer option with respect to accidental unclipping

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 3:56 pm
by Tristan
So you're a monkey? (by this definition anyway) :jocolor:

Seriously: GATE ORIENTATIONS - GO

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:50 pm
by Forket
Im a fan of opposing gates :thumleft:

eT
I use finger tape to stick my license disc to the window

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:03 pm
by Ghaznavid
Tristan wrote:So you're a monkey? (by this definition anyway)
Apparently that story was just a legend, scientists say those findings are unlikely, and you would struggle to spray the monkeys before one of them reaches the banana (they also doubt the cold water would put the monkey off food). But I like the metaphor and I agree with what you are saying :mrgreen:

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:27 am
by brianweaver
I used to climb with my draws opposed, now I climb with the aligned. However, with the extent of projecting I do, I often will customize my draws so that I can have the least effort to clip the draw with the best orientation within the bolt so that it does not add additional stress on the system and I can clip the fastest (I clip with my middle digit in the biner: ie left hand -- right-facing gate).

I think it often comes down to personal preference above all else, unless your draw is getting twisted in the bolt (in which case you have the left-right orientation in the bolt incorrect --> which is another topic altogether... OR IS IT)

Re: Orientation of a quickdraw

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:30 am
by ccjoubert
Here is a manual for assessment at the UFS climbing wall, it is a good beginners guide.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... ljZWU3OWYx