explain the price differential

Post here for all your gear questions, rants and raves. Ask about gear before you buy it and find out what others are using. NOTE: this forum is NOT for gear sales.

Marshall1
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Location: Port Elizabeth
Contact:

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Marshall1 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:08 pm

If you are not mountaineering at atitude or where you need to melt snow for water what do you need an MSR for...other than to impress your mates. Although watching someone else(too frustrating for me) getting them started is somewhat entertaining(especial when they believe that MSR multi fuel BS) the noise is they make when they start is unacseptable.

JonoJ
Posts: 382
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 5:30 pm
Real Name: Jonathan Joseph
Location: Cape Town

Re: explain the price differential

Post by JonoJ » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:27 pm

Marshall1 wrote:If you are not mountaineering at atitude or where you need to melt snow for water what do you need an MSR for...other than to impress your mates. .
Same can be said for down jackets. Local conditions hardly warrant having one... yet, everyone wants one, and most climbers have one.
Marshall1 wrote:Although watching someone else(too frustrating for me) getting them started is somewhat entertaining(especial when they believe that MSR multi fuel BS) the noise is they make when they start is unacseptable.
I test and service them fairly extensively, and have always had great success in burning Benzine, Paraffin (Kerosene), Diesel, and Unleaded Petrol. If they're not burning properly it's more often than not a case of RTFM (or learn how to use it properly when purchasing it). Yes, the Dragonfly is a noisy bugger, but it is intended as a highly usable (in terms of flame and heat control) base camp stove or guiding stove where one is actually cooking (not merely melting snow or reconstituting freeze-dry meals). There are quieter and less expensive options too, such as the Whisperlite.

Now, on to why you'd want a multi-fuel stove in Africa's non-alpine environment:
- They are by far the "greener" option. There is NOWHERE one can legally dispose of used gas canisters, and as a result they end up in landfills polluting our precious land.
- In the long run they are far cheaper to run. A bottle of 750ml benzine will cost you R10 - and per 100ml's (1 ounce) of fuel you will be able to boil 5.1L and 5.7L of water. Gas equates to 1.8L to 2.8L of water boiled per ounce of fuel.
- Air travel .... you can't take gas on a plane. You can't take liquid fuel on a plane either, but the chances of finding some sort of burnable liquid fuel at your remote African destination are much higher than finding some gas.
- When people at the campsite see your multi-fuel jet engine, they will think you're hardcore and this will earn you more crag-cred.

mr Chabalala
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:38 pm
Real Name: Leon Nel

Re: explain the price differential

Post by mr Chabalala » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:45 pm

JonoJ wrote:This thread just illustrates how good MSR products are. Not without reason - they are quite simply the best in their field.

I mean, the time spent griping about and researching prices on a particular excellent product could quite easily be spent trundling off to your local chain store and purchasing an el cheapo product.

Yes, most climbers probably don't have vast amounts of liquid cash floating about, but MSR is a fairly aspirational product, and well worth saving for. In the same light as saving for a pair of top-end aggressive shoes, rather than cheaping out on a pair of entry level ones. Why would you do it? Because it's better, and it's worth it.
uhn, no, it illistrates that we are paying double the price for MSR (and Jetboil) products.

And as to the pro and cons of a MSR Dragonfly stove
Pros
1) Heats them up quickly.
2) 1 Litre of fuel can last a large group a fair amount of time without having to worry about running out of gas. Can even make some hot water for the wife that refuses to have use the cold drakensberg streams in winter.
3) Impresses your newby friends (just make sure there isn't anybody around with a self start gas stove, else the novelty wears of quickly)
4) Can be used to drone out the sound of low flying jetplanes

Cons
1) noise
2) set up time
3) takes up lot of space in backpack
4) Could be messy
5) A few tricks to start it up means more often than not that you have to help in getting the fire going AND end up making the coffee

Given all the above, MSR you have the pricing spot on, even bettter, increase it a bit.

JonoJ
Posts: 382
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 5:30 pm
Real Name: Jonathan Joseph
Location: Cape Town

Re: explain the price differential

Post by JonoJ » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:06 pm

Ho hum. Let's compare apples with sheep then shall we.....

Using the same calculations that brought this argument about in the first place....

New Ford Focus RS bought in the US : $38000 @ current exchange rate = R262960
New Ford Focus RS bought here at home the good old S of A: = R479000

Maybe not quite double but close enough! Please do inform us of the response you receive when you present this argument to Ford SA.

I really think we should close this argument now.

mr Chabalala
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:38 pm
Real Name: Leon Nel

Re: explain the price differential

Post by mr Chabalala » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:30 pm

ok JonoJ, if you say so.

but just because this is my thread and i like to have the last word, and I don't feel like working. Let me be the one to point out that your logic is skewed.

You point out that the items your are comparing are not comparable (for a number of reasons)
Let's compare apples with sheep then shall we....

and then you still put that forward as an argument, to prove what?

that the South Afrtican cosumer is being ripped of by MSR, Jetboil (for Catherine's sake) and Ford.

Well I agree.

ok lets end the thread

JonoJ
Posts: 382
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 5:30 pm
Real Name: Jonathan Joseph
Location: Cape Town

Re: explain the price differential

Post by JonoJ » Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:02 pm

Cool :thumright

One quick thing though..... did you loose your pump or is it broken? If broken, send it to me at Outward Ventures and I'll fix it for you.

:)

Marshall1
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Location: Port Elizabeth
Contact:

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Marshall1 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:39 pm

I was most dissatisfied with my shaker-jet when it konked on a trip. It suffered some abuse. MSR were really quick to send me a replacement. Their local service is tops.

Daydreams
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:40 pm

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Daydreams » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:56 pm

The reason you part with your well earned bucks and buy a MSR stove is because the are just so much better than the other products out there. I hiked the fish river this year and in our group of 8 there was 1 really cheapo and 2 not so cheapo's and my whisperlite (R600 buck 11 years ago). We would all gather around and prepare our meals, I would give the other chaps a 20min head start just so that we could eat together.
As to the service from the chaps that distribute MSR I need to say well done, after years of good service I needed to replace my pump. I contacted mmo and they recomended I send it to them and they will see what they could do. Two weeks later I had a brand new pump at no charge. Keep it up guys.
If I needed a knew stove for some or other reason I would look no further than MSR.

WikiDave
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:44 am
Real Name: Mikhail Pentz

Re: explain the price differential

Post by WikiDave » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:28 am

Clearly none of you have used the Edelrid Hexon stove, MSR is an excelent product but there are others around that are just as good, just less marketed in this country.

Yes I have used both, in cold and altitude and in my opinion the Edelrid stove works better than the MSR whisperlite I was using previously for a number of reasons, but more so for the price. I bought it from a local shop at R1260 including a fuel bottle. Servicing costs are minimal as it came with a spare nozzle and does not require a wick like the MSR stove.

User avatar
XMod
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Real Name: Greg Hart

Re: explain the price differential

Post by XMod » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:03 am

MSR make good stuff but I refute the fact that its quicker, in fact the GAZ with full cartridge actually boils water quicker than the MSR Whisperlite or Dragonfly (weve timed them). Problems with low gas levels, cold and altitude can be mitigated by using propane/butane mix and attaching a simple heat transfer system (a length of copper wire and some tape) and a windshield (a piece of heavy duty ally foil). All in all a cheap and dead simple solution perfect for South Africa. In thirty plus years of owning GAZ stoves Ive cleaned a jet once! No MSR owner could ever claim such a low maintenance record.

If you arent travelling through the deepest darkest thrid world and planning on getting there by plane there just isnt any reason to own a fancy fussy stove (All that pumping, benzine spilling everywhere, pumps breaking - crap plastic handle, etc etc) [Sorry Geoff!]. A down jacket may well save your life if youre caught out in a snow storm (yes it does snow in SA Jono!) but having a fancy stove isnt going to make the slightest bit of difference. This topic just screams rich kids moaning about how much money they're spending :pukel: :puker: . In this country in this economy to be contemplating unnecessarily spending two grand on a camping stove is just plain distasteful!!

NB I do not work for GAZ nor am I involved in gear retail or wholesale, nor do I have any affiliation to anyone involved in doing so. As far as MSR suppliers being a rip off is concerned - total bollocks! I know the agent personally and he has never struck me as anything but a mild mannered and kind gentleman. He wouldnt rip ppl off, why would he? Ripping ppl off is the surest way to kill your business in the long run.

M@
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:37 pm
Real Name: Mathieu Schneuwly
Location: Cape Town

Re: explain the price differential

Post by M@ » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:00 pm

Let me just explain why multi fuel stoves are worthwhile for anyone who spends a lot of time camping.

I'll compare a stylish R2020 multi fuel to a good old ( :puker: ) R278 pierce type gas stove.

Average fuel consumption collected from websites:
Multi fuel: 160min/750ml benzine, 750ml benzine R15. (so R5.6/hour)
Gas hero: 60min/200g cannister, 200g cannister R22.5. (so R22.5/hour)

Solve for t (hours) where costs are equalled.

2020 + t*5.6 = 278 + t*22.5

t=103hr. This is how long it takes for the cost of gas cooking to equal the cost of multi-fuel cooking.

Now, say 2hrs per day while camping. (probably more if you include all the coffee making)
Maybe 5 days per road trip.
Maybe 3 of those roadtrips per year for average active climber.
That makes 15 days/year.
Do the maths it takes roughly 3.5 years to cover costs.

After which you'll be paying R16.8/hour more if you're using gas.
That equals another R2000 if you use it for another 4yrs. (you could buy a second multifuel for that!)
(would a cheap gas stove even last 8 years?)

In my case: easy 50 days/ year camping, so 100hrs cooking.
I paid mine off in one year!

Bear in mind that if you buy a click/valve type gas stove the gas prices rocket and make the multi-fuel even more affordable in comparison.

davedrifters
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:20 am

Re: explain the price differential

Post by davedrifters » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:09 pm

Well said M@

I don't own a Dragonfly, however my Whisperlite is one of my most prized possessions. And it's as quiet as a gas stove.

Marshall1
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Location: Port Elizabeth
Contact:

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Marshall1 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:50 pm

MSR should offer a service plan for all their stoves.

User avatar
ScottS
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:10 pm
Real Name: Scott Sinclair
Location: Durban, South Africa

Re: explain the price differential

Post by ScottS » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:20 pm

Marshall1 wrote:MSR should offer a service plan for all their stoves.
5 years or 100 000 camping days sounds fair.
At the chaaaaains boet!!

User avatar
XMod
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Real Name: Greg Hart

Re: explain the price differential

Post by XMod » Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:45 pm

M@ Im not sure where u buy kit but I get propane gas cartridges for less than R15 and you can pick up the stove a whole lot cheaper than R278 so I think your calculations are a bit off.

M@
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:37 pm
Real Name: Mathieu Schneuwly
Location: Cape Town

Re: explain the price differential

Post by M@ » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:29 pm

XMod wrote:M@ Im not sure where u buy kit but I get propane gas cartridges for less than R15 and you can pick up the stove a whole lot cheaper than R278 so I think your calculations are a bit off.
Well i don't buy gas, that was part of my point. I got those prices off the first south african site that offered them. Redo the estimate and let us know what you come up with.

M@
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:37 pm
Real Name: Mathieu Schneuwly
Location: Cape Town

Re: explain the price differential

Post by M@ » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:39 pm

M@ wrote:
XMod wrote:M@ Im not sure where u buy kit but I get propane gas cartridges for less than R15 and you can pick up the stove a whole lot cheaper than R278 so I think your calculations are a bit off.
Well i don't buy gas, that was part of my point. I got those prices off the first south african site that offered them. Redo the estimate and let us know what you come up with.
In fact while you are at it, redo the estimate using the Edelrid Hexon @ R1353 and unleaded fuel, R6/750ml (R2.25/hour).
That should be interesting.

User avatar
Nic Le Maitre
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:40 am
Real Name: Nic Le Maitre
Location: Harrismith

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:54 am

XMod wrote:I get propane gas cartridges for less than R15
Seriously? Please let me know where so I can get some too.
Happy climbing
Nic

DolphinDawie
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: explain the price differential

Post by DolphinDawie » Fri May 06, 2011 4:53 pm

Just bought a brand new Beal Joker 60m Dry rope for R1100 in Arco, Italy. Check out the price in SA...

User avatar
Leebo
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:26 am
Real Name: Lee de Smidt
Location: Cape Town

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Leebo » Fri May 06, 2011 11:08 pm

That rope, 60m:

Eur 169.95 http://www.sportler.com/sportlerShop/pr ... .1_6196850
Eur 161 http://www.espacemontagne.com/product-s ... n-dry.html
Eur 192.95 http://www.espacemontagne.com/product-s ... m-60m.html
Eur 153 http://www.9cplus.com/boutique/246-joke ... -au-m.html

So let's average it at Eur 169. That's R1,629 at today's exchange rate of R9.64 to the Euro.

Did you buy this rope from a retailer trying to move stock at a discounted price?

Did you declare the rope at customs?

If you did that brings your total to R1,858 with VAT.

For those of us who can't afford a trip to Arco a couple hundred bucks (which covers the importer's shipping costs, salaries and overheads) seems well worth it.

User avatar
Turtle
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:20 pm
Real Name: Jacques Redelinghuys

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Turtle » Fri May 06, 2011 11:26 pm

Some people have no idea... The people who boosts overseas soo much should go live there!

Leebo, you put it nicely into perspective. I think climbing goods retail 'scene' in SA is really competitive - I just had a guy in today, from France I think, saying a decent harness would cost him 80 Euro, thats just below R800 in SA, I think, and we have the best of the best, Petzl, Wild Country, Black Diamond, Singing Rock all selling between R444 and R571...

Marshall1
Posts: 764
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Location: Port Elizabeth
Contact:

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Marshall1 » Sun May 08, 2011 10:27 am

Mammut Vertex 10mm STD Rope 60m US$119.96 = R839.72
Black Diamond Free Wire Quick Draw US$10.95 = R76.65

at MooseJaw.com

So if you know some one who is coming from the US...do your self a favour.

I buy local because i'm too lazy/busy to make arraingments & have a good relationship with a local retailer. But there are cheaper places on the net.

Oakley
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:05 pm
Real Name: Theunis de Bruin
Location: Pretoria

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Oakley » Sun May 08, 2011 1:04 pm

Some of the American retailers doesnt ship certain brands... make sure before ordering. but if you shop around you will find someone that has good prices and ship to SA.

I tend to support international shopping and my local shop(certain normally priced items)...

DolphinDawie
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: explain the price differential

Post by DolphinDawie » Mon May 09, 2011 9:14 am

Thanks for all the feedback.

Of course there will be price differences from place to place. I thought the point of the forum is to share tips and information, not lobby for the local retail/import scene.

Why don't we just share information to find the best price? For example Arcteryx is usually cheaper in Canada than the US. Arco in Italy is a great place to buy gear, the gear store at Curry Village Yosemite is cheaper than REI USA. This is all information that helps us to make informed choices, and to ultimately spend more time climbing.

I'm certainly not advocating boycotting your local climbing store. I certainly spend my hard earned cash locally as well.

Have fun climbing.

Lubags
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Real Name: Marllu da Conceicao

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Lubags » Wed May 11, 2011 11:25 am

Hi Guys

Just wanted to add that after reading through this whole thread the only thing i learned was that the retailers need to take another look at the freight forwarder/customs broker you guys are using. i have been in the industry (freight) for more than 10 years and i think you guys are not getting the service and price you deserve. Being on the import side myself now i know what a difference their fees and customs fees can make to your cost price.

that is all.

Lubags

Lubags
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:31 pm
Real Name: Marllu da Conceicao

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Lubags » Wed May 11, 2011 11:27 am

DaveG wrote:Thanks for all the feedback.

Of course there will be price differences from place to place. I thought the point of the forum is to share tips and information, not lobby for the local retail/import scene.

Why don't we just share information to find the best price? For example Arcteryx is usually cheaper in Canada than the US. Arco in Italy is a great place to buy gear, the gear store at Curry Village Yosemite is cheaper than REI USA. This is all information that helps us to make informed choices, and to ultimately spend more time climbing.

I'm certainly not advocating boycotting your local climbing store. I certainly spend my hard earned cash locally as well.

Have fun climbing.
Froogle.com is your friend :thumright

User avatar
Leebo
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:26 am
Real Name: Lee de Smidt
Location: Cape Town

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Leebo » Thu May 12, 2011 8:53 am

Lubags, See PM

Oakley
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:05 pm
Real Name: Theunis de Bruin
Location: Pretoria

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Oakley » Thu May 12, 2011 12:28 pm

Just ordered my MSR stove yesterday from the USA( made use of acmeclimbing for the second time, first time was for my trad rack)
They have a the nice option of buying kits or larger amounts for automatic discounts.

Included in my shopping list was a MSR XGK EX stove, 2 fuel bottles, service kit, 2 BD cams and some nuts[stoppers])

Price paid :
$423.7price + $ 53 shipping + ($423.7 x 0.14)vat [at 6.9 exchange rate]
= R2918.7 + R365.7 + R409 = R3693

Price in SA = R 5917 excluding shipping

I still dont have anything against the local shops(and still do support them), but paying R2224 more for 7 items, no way...

Lets get the international websites that gave you good service and prices on here.

Catherine
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:19 pm
Real Name: Catherine Esterhuizen

Re: explain the price differential

Post by Catherine » Thu May 12, 2011 2:16 pm

Awesome choice of stove Theunis, be sure to contact us locally if you need any help or servicing!
You will be the envy of the everyone on the ledge when you fire that baby up on a frosty morning.

Cathy@
Outward Ventures
021 683 3638

elfware
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 2:38 pm
Real Name: Nick B

Re: explain the price differential

Post by elfware » Thu May 12, 2011 2:40 pm

Catherine wrote:
Jetboil helios on Amazon is $119.
Jetboil helios local online R2025.00

also a huge "discrepancy"

How many users on this forum thread are actively involved in importing "dangerous" goods?
and for all those people that bought stoves overseas, who will you contact when something needs servicing or spares?
so i think the problem is in fact MSR and not the SA climbing retailers
So Robert I see that according to you MSR is also responsible for the "discrepancy" of Jetboil.

I have found it for R1506 on take 2 (amazon import) http://more.take2.co.za/moreusa-jetboil ... cvj24.html

??
takes a while. But I watch the dollar and pounce on deals (quick draws and such)

Post Reply