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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:05 am 
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Real Name: Cormac Tooze
I left a quick-draw at the Sandrif crag on Saturday 30/04/11 late arvie/evening. Upon returning the next day to retrieve it it was gone. I left it on Wow Wow Peddle (19) on the 6th bolt. It was a very new WILD COUNTRY NITRO, silver carabiners with white/red and grey webbing, can send pic if required
:-) Cheers hope some one is holding onto it safely for me :-)


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 4:12 pm 
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Real Name: Myburgh van Zijl
Hello Xenomorph

I'm sorry that you lost your draw. I hope that it is returned to you soon.
I'm also sorry to hijack your thread, but I feel this is a good opportunity to inquire as to common practise when it comes to finding gear left behind on a route.

Let's say you get to a route, and there are draws on it, but there's no one in sight...
What do you do?
SURELY you leave them there. Use them, by all means, if you want to climb the route, but leave them as you found them when you're done...

Obviously different situations call for different actions, but a single, obviously new draw left six bolts up was obviously left there for a reason, and the most obvious assumption would be that the person who left it there is planning to retrieve it.

Maybe it's not that obvious to everyone.

Anyway, I hope you get it back.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:20 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
How long do you store a single draw on a route before it becomes litter?

Take your stuff home.

I hope you get over it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:23 am 
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Real Name: Cormac Tooze
@ burgman Thnx for the positive vibes :-)


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:48 am 
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Real Name: Myburgh van Zijl
No worries man.

I'm just curious as to whether there is some kind of general consensus as far as "gear-left-on-route-ethics" is concerned.

Personally, I wouldn't take gear off a route. Either it's a project, or the climber bailed in an emergency/rainstorm/whatever.
Either way, it's not your gear, so why take it? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm missing out on free stuff.

What of the converse? When is it okay to leave gear on a route? When is it not okay?

Anyway... Sorry. I hope someone returns your draw.


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:23 pm 
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burgman wrote:
No worries man.

I'm just curious as to whether there is some kind of general consensus as far as "gear-left-on-route-ethics" is concerned.

Personally, I wouldn't take gear off a route. Either it's a project, or the climber bailed in an emergency/rainstorm/whatever.
Either way, it's not your gear, so why take it? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm missing out on free stuff.

What of the converse? When is it okay to leave gear on a route? When is it not okay?

Anyway... Sorry. I hope someone returns your draw.


I like to live by the Mantra "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

If I found a draw I would make an effort to find the owner and return it!
Taking it and not telling anyone is deceitful!


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:57 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Ja, me too. If I don't take responsibility for my stuff & leave it all over the place, please help me clean it up....I'll do the same for you.


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:06 pm 
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Come now Mr Marshall, that seems a little unfair! If it weren't for guys like you, there wouldn't be any places for people to hang their "litter" :)

Honestly though, it does seem like the right thing to do to make a gesture such as posting the retrieval on this forum, especially considering how small our climbing community still is. I think that everyone (sport climbers) will get really pissed if, all of a sudden, someone started running around removing hangers all over the place.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:05 am 
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Real Name: Cormac Tooze
BUMP


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 8:05 am 
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Real Name: Cormac Tooze
BUMP


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 9:42 am 
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Real Name: Myburgh van Zijl
Still haven't got your draw back?
Bastards...


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 10:16 am 
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Real Name: Cormac Tooze
burgman wrote:
Still haven't got your draw back?
Bastards...


Nope, still waiting!


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:40 pm 
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I tried to think of some thing nice to say, tried to just say nothing, but I just can't, it has to be said.

With the exception of projects being worked; I understood the rule was finders-keepers...till the forum introduced a soft touch aproach.

I'm with the old aproach & I don't care about your draw. Best wishes to the lucky bastards who found it.

Note to Mullet...please find out the diffrence between hangers & draws. It's quite important...for you...


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 9:24 am 
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Real Name: Myburgh van Zijl
Amazing...

You must have quite a collection Marshall.

If I'm ever fortunate enough to climb at your local crag, I'll make double-sure not to leave any gear on a route.


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 10:11 am 
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Real Name: Warren Gans
Its funny how people talk about contributing to climbing, and yet others seek only to take from it, and defend their stance. Internationallly there is a standard on gear left on routes, and on this forum proviously we have settled on an understanding that is aligned with this international understanding. the logic of one draw left on a route being free game is flawed, as clearly it is possible to leave less then the whole draw in place- one could simply leave one biner. therefore if someone has left the draw in its entirety surely they intend returning for it, and so should one find a situation like this logic would have you leaving the draw in place.

how can one talk about gear as litter: is litter not defined as "carelessly discarded refuse"? does your rack contain refuse, i assume not, and therefore one could assume that others' think the same of theirs. if one wants to remove litter from crags why not start with stompies? no, this logic screams of "I Want", not "I Tollerate, and Contribute"

please take the above as an attack on the idea, not the person

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 11:19 am 
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Warren G wrote:
please take the above as an attack on the idea, not the person


but surely if that person is carrying out his idea (in this case stealing draws) then the attack should be on the person as well as the idea?


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 12:07 pm 
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Real Name: Warren Gans
Wes, I hear you, but I have also learnt that if one person is proud enough to declare themselves thieves there are sure to be more people less bold. The painful thing in this situation is that the proud thief (or rather person justifying the thieves activities) is a noted figure of a small climbing community, and therefore his logic will disseminate to more of that community, then we will start hearing about project draws getting removed, and the justification is "i was cleaning the litter from the crag".

a fairer answer may be to simply not remove any gear one sees on sport routes, illiminate the "finders keepers" notion from the discipline, and berate any who remove even leaver biners.

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 2:24 pm 
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Real Name: Dirk Talma
Quote:
How long do you store a single draw on a route before it becomes litter?


Derek, so you propose that a few hours is enough time to give Xen to retrieve his draw, seeing as he went to collect it the next day?

I can understand it if you take off a mailon, because it is in the way and its dangerous to have two pieces of gear in one hanger and fall on the top piece. If its a lost biner, just clip your quickdraw underneath the biner.

Your trash attitude is wrong and you know it!

Some day you will leave a draw because it started raining or there's an emergency at home or something. What then?


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 2:43 pm 
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In this circumstance I feel that it was a bit harsh to take the draw, considering it was left behind (that said who could have visited the crag between the time you left and the time you arrived the next day?).

My general feeling on abandoned gear is just that - it has been abandoned. If you bail and leave kit behind well then that is your decision, you also get to decide on how much gear you leave behind and thus how safe you make your retreat. We all have to do it at some stage... We can't always go back to get it, so I say clean it up if you come across abandoned gear.

When a sport route has every bolt clipped with draws, we'll then it's obvious it's being worked (i.e. not abandoned, but work in progress). That said, you are still leaving vulnerable kit behind at your own risk, you have to accept that when you pack up your kit and walk away. Also, gear does go missing in Europe and draws do get plucked from routes...

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
If the draw mattered Xenomorph would have taken his draw home or gone to fetch it early the next morning. But it didn't, so why fuss now? Why expect someone else to make the effort to return it to you?

I leave gear quite often, but it does not matter that much to me. If it disapears its my tough luck. I'll get over it & I'll learn some thing. Pampering does not teach anybody anything.

"If I'm ever fortunate enough to climb at your local crag, I'll make double-sure not to leave any gear on a route."...thanks Burgman, much apreciated, take your stuff home, leave the crag clean.

Warren after the litter you left on Towerkop, prehaps it is not to say to much on the subject of what is litter.


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 8:59 am 
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Firstly, I thought we had agreed to attack the argument, not the person, and so I don't address this to anyone.
Secondly, I have appologized for passed disgressions.
Third, my "litter" in the passed was genuine litter, while draws-as we have agreed by consencus- is not. Forth, perhaps the situation didn't allow for the draw owner to get back to it as fast as he would like. Fifth, perhaps some people have greater appreciation of their gear than others, and so more offended when they return and find their gear is gone.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 9:29 am 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
"greater appreciation of their gear" If you have greater appreciation, then keep control of your gear. Don't leave it all over the place, then expect others to not-appreciate it & make an effort to return it.

Apologies don't clean mountains.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 11:18 am 
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It's funny to me that in a city with tar roads, buildings and cars spewing out pollution? Never mind the fact that some arb little rock face has bolts all over it or eroded pathways to get to it and you consider a quick draw to be litter?

Like somebody else said get a life pick up stompies, pick up some real litter, help feed some starving children just leave the quick draws alone.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 5:04 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
Dark Horse, how long should we leave a draw, 2 days, 2 week, 2 years, life span of the bolts? What if it was left by a traveling Euro who never comes back? do we just store it there forever?


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 8:24 pm 
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Real Name: Scott Miller
FYI My quickdraws say "Bad Motherfucker" on them. So think real hard before you touch them.

[me in the diner after someone took my draws]
Jules: I want you to go in that bag, and find my quickdraw.
Pumpkin: Which one is it?
Jules: It's the one that says Bad Motherfucker

Jules: I'm not giving you that quickdraw. I'm buying something from you. Wanna know what I'm buyin' Ringo?
Pumpkin: What?
Jules: Your life. I'm givin' you that quickdraw so I don't have to kill your ass. You read the Bible?
Pumpkin: Not regularly.
Jules: There's a passage I got memorized. Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon you." Now... I been sayin' that shit for years. And if you ever heard it, that meant your ass. You'd be dead right now. I never gave much thought to what it meant. I just thought it was a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherfucker before I popped a cap in his ass. But I saw some shit this mornin' made me think twice. See, now I'm thinking: maybe it means you're the evil man. And I'm the righteous man. And Mr. 9mm here... he's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness. Or it could mean you're the righteous man and I'm the shepherd and it's the world that's evil and selfish. And I'd like that. But that shit ain't the truth. The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd.

Image


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 9:49 am 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
Uhhu! Scott: clearly your draws matter to you... are you really prepard to kill & spend life in prison, getting or giving a** *** for a lousy draw? Thats real commitment to draws... but I'm not sure thats a righteous path. It is surely not a clever path.

In reallity I'm not sure God cares much about a few lame draws, definately there are worse acts than removing an adandoned draw; that go un-avenged by God. Maybe we should not involve Him too much in this petty discussion.

Just as a matter of intrest, I have not been blessed in the area of finding abandoned draws. Only 2 spring to mind in 15 years of climbing(there have been various nuts & an old cam)... I'm thinking of tithe-ing 10% of my draws to the crags?


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 10:00 am 
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Real Name: Paul P
Let's play spot-who-hasn't-seen-Pulp-Fiction... :jocolor:


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 10:19 am 
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Real Name: Warren Gans
Fantastic post Scott! Both funny and appropriate: we are talking about perspective on a situation some parties consider a problem, while others an opportunity. Thus to make direct accusations (thief!) or to continue to dwell on a previous incident will only have the conversation run in circles. We must look for solutions.

This conversation has happened on this forum before, when a fully equipped route at The Canyon was cleaned of the working draws on them, and people justified rational of removing the draws, I haven't re read that thread in prep for this, but i believe the result of that thread was an understanding that if a full set of draws is left on a route, clearly it is a project, and to be left alone. Every climber knows how to remove a quickdraw from a bolt, or even just the express sling and bottom biner, with this in mind I suffer to understand how anyone could think the draw owner didn't want to return to claim the entire draw in the same way as the project draws are spoken for. However that owner may not be in a position to claim their draw as soon as they would like, exposing them to opportune people. We should be trying to set a precedent on which to resolve issues like this in the future. Should there be a time clause? Should the owner leave some kind of indication that they intend returning for the gear, similar to what we do with closed projects? Or should we all carry items we are willing to lower off of and then abandon?

I think the lesson learnt here is two fold:
1. People see situations differently
2. With 1 in mind we must consider the situations we find ourselves in carefully and how others see it. In this case carry a mailon, D-Shackle or old biner to use as abandoned gear. Later the community could discuss whether it is sound to remove this gear from the wall, but certainly we would have less fuss from owners of these lever devices in that conversation.

Regarding gear=litter I am curious to know what people say about the trad abseil points stroon over many cliff tops of the country, many of which are far more an eye saw than a lonely draw hanging of a cliff

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 10:30 pm 
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I am curious to know what people say about the trad abseil points strewn over many cliff tops of the country, many of which are far more an eye saw than a lonely draw hanging of a cliff


This past December I enjoyed my first outing on Table Mountain (Jacob's - What a Route!). It was also a bit confusing for me. Before that day I heard stories of Boltergeist and of guys chopping bolts the next day after a bolt was placed. Then I learned about all those abseil anchors. Seeing as its possible to walk down to the ledge, why have them? I heard one of the reasons bolts aren't allowed is because it's a National Park and World Heritage Site.
I know there are some climbs that don't end on top. That I can understand. But abseil anchors right at the top?

I certainly don't want TM to be bolted. Hell no. You guys are lucky to have a mountain in your backyard!

I'm sure this is a topic that has been discussed in length. Sorry for bringing it up. I'm just curious about this.


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