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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:30 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Seems like the foreigners are beating us at our own game in our back yard dudes….

http://www.climb.co.za/2010/10/new-rout ... hitheatre/

They have done 3 new routes in the last year at Yellowwood.

This is the line that Dark Horse and I were attempting on the day that Bob Woods memorial was held at the Du Toit’s kloof lodge. But we were rained off!

C’mon okes, we cannot let these guys steal our lines. Let’s get out there and do the routes before they bag em all….


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:27 pm 
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Snorty this is not what you and Dark Horse tried. Dark showed me where you guys were way right of this.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:30 pm 
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see my comment with the article


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:31 pm 
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I totally agree SNORT, but first I need to be able to climb 7a+....then I need to be confident to lead 7a+ on trad.....then I need to be confident to open a trad route at 7a+.

Ja....maybe next lifetime.

zb.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:46 am 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Hilton, I intended climbing that corner. It was the line I was aiming for. The fact is we could not see it as it was too misty. So we started in the wrong place.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:49 am 
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Looks like a great line..well done to a) Hilton et al and b) the foreigners (for writing it up so nicely).

What a pity not to see some publicity for the first ascensionists (i.e. Hilton et al), especially given the fact that it's such a photogenic line. Well done guys - really inspirational, sweaty palm stuff! :)

At the risk of starting another bun fight (and to echo what Hector has said) I see there are several single bolted stances on the foreigners line. If Hilton et al were able to climb it without drilling, then surely these bolts could've been largely avoided? Again, it seems as though having no set rules is a recipe for this kind of thing happening. Personally, I see the MCSA climbing sub-committee being best placed to make/enforce decisions on this kind of thing...whether they be democratic (i.e. by the elected committee) or more broadly consensus based (i.e. by some kind of climbing community based poll). But, in my view, the committee needs more visibility and support from the climbing community.

Clearly, everyone doing there own thing out there is not going to work.

Fair comment?

s


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:36 am 
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Fair comment.

If the information is not put out there then no one knows:
- What routes have been done
- What the standard/rules of the area are

Tough one to say about having a bolt at a stance (vs hanging on perhaps dodgy placements!?), certainly might make more people go and do the route!?

And yes, Gerry's write-up / topo of the route is awesome :thumleft:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:02 pm 
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Real Name: Scott Miller
WIKI WIKI WIKI Or if you dont want to use the WIKI send it to Justin to post. The climbZA wiki is by far the most complete source for route info. I dig SAmountain and Tony and respect what he is doing but I think the route info should all be in one place and the moment seems to be with the climbza wiki, also it is easily added to by anyone, a big plus. I think posting the info in the wiki so all know about it and then writing a great article with pics for SAmountain or other outlets is a great way to go.
Way too many trad (and some sport) lines out there that only a handful of people know about. If it is secret on purpose than thats cool just cant get too mad when someone else climbs it or ads a few belay stances.
Cool
Scott


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:18 pm 
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Location: cape town
So... not sure if I heard correctly but it seems the foreigners bolted the stances when it wasn't entirely necessary and that is of course the reason there was no sign of the route being climbed.
Anyway what exactly is the deal now with yellow wood? Seeing as it has a few bolts does that now mean anyone with a drill can put in bolts where they think it is appropriate?

Does seem a bit weird to me, when I travel to new destinations I always assume that the best lines have already been done so it would make sense to me to try and repeat all the best lines first.... at least. Although saying that who knows? Maybe they did?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:01 am 
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When this kind of thing happens, is anyone getting in touch with these guys (ze germans) to let them know, so that they don't go and give their fellow northerners the wrong ideas based on their experiences? (and thanking them for the RD:)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:21 am 
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I put Gerry in touch with Hilton so that they might discuss the route in question.

Gerry mentioned to me that 'there were sections where one could hardly believe that anybody was there before because the holds had very thin layers of rock/dust that needed to be cleaned (in order to use them). There were absolutely no signs of people... no chalk, also not in pockets you need to use or under roofs (which would never get wet)'.

Regarding foreigners at the crag:

I don't think they're getting any wrong ideas but it would be useful if the Yellowwood Locals update the Wiki with new routes and the ethics with regards to bolting, overnighting, crapping on the wall, etc

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:44 am 
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Real Name: Brian Weaver
I climbed with Gerry for at least 10 days while he was in Boven. He told me about his Jambulani route in Yellowwood and said that they were very sparing with bolts. He specifically said that they placed bolts only at belay stances where they felt that the gear was not completely safe so they rather would have a single bolt and some gear in place rather than run the risk of gear failure while belaying. He seemed incredibly conscious of the balance of nature in the area. I specifically mentioned to him what the previous group has done and he told me that he had actually read their article. So I corrected the information that was in their article with what they had actually done. I told him to take back this knowledge. He seemed very keen to keep Yellowwood as natural and clean as possible. I think you guys should take care in being harsh towards him and his group, they are very good guys that put a lot of effort into their line being what it is now. Instead of attacking him, you might rather say, "I WISH MORE FOREIGN VISITORS WERE AS CONSIDERATE AS THIS GROUP."

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:53 am 
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I second what Brian has just written above (word for word) :thumleft:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:01 pm 
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Posted on behalf of Hilton Davies:

Bruce and I have had a good hard look at this business to come to a position on the matter.

Some details:

1. Judgment Time (“Judgment”) starts about 10m left of Jabulani (see pic of Alan belaying at first stance)
2. Judgment heads up broken ground on grey rock and stances at the start of the band of rotten red rock about 15m below the long overhangs.
3. Judgment then does a long traverse to the right, first across a pocketed face then under a small overhang (see pic of Alan seconding) then across a grey face to do a hanging stance on a sloping ledge.
4. Judgment then heads up to a big ledge to then walk a long way to the right to clear the long roof system.
5. Judgment then crosses Jabulani

6. Jabulani heads up a white decomposing sandy corner to go through a squeeze then up the corner system. For Judgment we went further right for a few metres to stance where the ledge makes a turn. (Alan and I left a piton here when we abseiled off a small wire). Here Judgment goes through the small roof then trends up a break leftwards to intersect with Jabulani 20m higher on a ledge.
7. Judgment and Jabulani share the next 20m up a very good and steep corner including through a woody dead bush. Jabulani then heads out right and then up while Judgment heads up the corner for another 20m to stance on a ledge about 12cm wide with some sharp flakes and tricky protection.
8. Judgment then heads to the right up an overhanging pocketed red wall of poor rock to reach an icicle-like expanding flake. With poor protection Judgment then heads up to the enormous roof and around it on the right. Here we found a good ledge with standing room for two. First I had to excavate bush, grass and soil out of the corner and off the ledge. There is a superb vertical crack for cam protection. Jabulani also stances here.
9. Judgment and Jabulani share the next pitch to get to the halfway ledge. It starts as a crack then becomes a very nice clean and delicate face pitch on the left.
10. At this point the routes have arrived at what Rob Zipplies wrote up as the Armaggedon Times Wimp-Out Pitch. Here Jabulani gains a life entirely of its own by heading up and left. To us this looks like it either goes onto Armageddon Times or it goes very close.

Some further things:
11. At no stage did we find any need to bolt or peg belay stances. The stances are like any normal stances on Table Mountain. Although I can see that the sandy corner might have needed a bolt as I don’t recall seeing any cracks for gear there.
12. Judgment needs further work and a continuous ascent. Coming soon.
13. We don’t know the style of the Jabulani ascent. I.e. we don’t know if the bolts and pegs were placed on abseil from the top; we don’t know if the route had a continuous ascent etc.
14. I received a very decent email from Gerry Fiegl and we have been communicating. We don’t have any xenophobic or nationalistic issues and we have no wish to detract in any way from what Gerry and Johannes achieved. It’s very good and we welcome it.
15. Judgment and Jabulani can co-exist and both bring a lot to Yellowwood. They are close but share very little common ground. Similarly to many routes on Table Mountain.

Bolting at Yellowwood is clearly a big issue but it is our intention to separate the issues and deal only with the routes in this commentary.

Hilton
1 November 2010


Attachments:
File comment: Alan seconding
Judgment-time-02.jpg
Judgment-time-02.jpg [ 177.49 KiB | Viewed 2894 times ]
File comment: Alan belaying at first stance
Judgment-time-01.jpg
Judgment-time-01.jpg [ 181.64 KiB | Viewed 2894 times ]

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:23 pm 
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Very cool that there are two new lines now :thumleft:

That's one big bicep on Alan coming out of the overhang! :viking:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:20 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Recent foreign visitors are breaking the rules by not taking enough trouble to engage the local climbers and find out what's going at YW and then going on to do 1st ascents without bothering to climb any of the existing routes. They also all insist on bringing drills when in fact there has been no need for drilling in the past.

So sorry BrianWeaver, your defense of these guys does not wash with me...Even nice well intentioned people do inappropriate things.

There are lots of routes in the making at YW. Willem Le Roux, Deon Van Zyl, Dave Vallet and I have two routes already at the halfway ledge and one, is a pitch short of the top and there are no bolts or pegs on either of them. This info is all on Climb.co.za.....

Just hit the search button and Yellowwood and all is revealed..... These guys know this!

Betcha they are sponsored.....


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:23 pm 
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Justin wrote:
Regarding foreigners at the crag:

I don't think they're getting any wrong ideas but it would be useful if the Yellowwood Locals update the Wiki with new routes and the ethics with regards to bolting, overnighting, crapping on the wall, etc

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:33 pm 
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Real Name: Klimkop - Ricko
What will stop climbers from bolting routes in YW? Who decides? Can a sign be errected along walkins?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:56 pm 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
I cannot make the point more clearly that the way to determine what goes at a crag, is to engage a local climber well versed in the place, read the route guide if there is one and then, most importantly and absolutely mandatory go and climb a classic route. . You immediately get the drift of the place. It is a no-brainer!

I have just been to the USA and climbed in 6 different places including the Black Canyon of the Gunnison where there are the odd fixed piece but few stances are bolted.

Same goes for The Needles and California and Castleton Tower in Moab,

However not true for Black Velvet Canyon near Las Vegas and Yosemite where virtually every lower off and stance is bolted. And if fact one can call them sport trad climbing areas because at every tricky move there is a fixed piece or it is easy to place gear. At least on all the classic trade routes...

What's happening is that foreigners are completely changing the character of the place and dumbing it down from what it was by bolting the stances.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:57 pm 
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Respect.
All the guys who have been up there so far have been really 'good guys' and based on that I am 99% sure that if We (the all encompassing 'We') say 'No Bolts' they will respect that. It's a Trad climber thing :P

Both German parties that I spoke to (after they opened the routes) said they went onto the Wiki (I'm pretty sure they also both spoke to locals before going up) and then went up and did their thing.
No one told them not to bolt up there - the Wiki certainly does not say 'No Bolting'.

The fact that there is a full blown sport route there (+ shown in the Wiki and advertised all over the web when it was freed) sets a bit of a standard!!?

Any blame for bolting that has happened up there by a foreigner is our responsibility. If we don't let people know what the rules are then they can't abide by them!
I've created an Ethics header in the Yellowwood section of the Wiki. If anyone wants to send me info, I'd be happy to enter the info.

A sign 1/4 of the way up on the walkin couldn't hurt.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:05 pm 
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beautiful. Adding an ethics heading in the wiki is one step in the right direction. Thanks for that Justin.
Now for the sign on the walkins. with these 2 additional pieces of info there should be minimal reason for new visitors not to know the ethics.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:21 pm 
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I like the ethics heading, best idea ever!
And I would suggest this for all areas on the wiki.
That way there is no confusion, ever.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:26 pm 
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I think a sign up at Yellowwood itself is a great idea. Perhaps something like:

Important Notice
All foreigners: No bolting allowed on Yellowwood whatsoever. Anyone found contravening these rules will summarily have their balls sawn off by SNORT with a blunt SPAM knife.

Kind regards, the local Cape Climbing Community.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:58 pm 
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Right, as per the Yellowwood Ethics thread (which I had also forgotten about :oops: (just added my name now)... the Yellowwood Wiki page has been updated (feel free to add you name to the list).

It was great that Hilton and Gerry got to speak to one another about their routes to determine the different lines. (FYI - I've spoken to both of them and neither had any hard feelings at any time).

If someone wants to hang a 'Check your drill at the door' sign on the path up to Yellowwood - keep it classy and send us a photo :P

As per Peanut's recommendation:
Please feel free to add and 'Ethics' section to your local crag that might be in the Wiki. If you need help feel free to drop me a mail.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:17 am 
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Snort: so what if they are sponsored? what does that have to do with anything? All that this means is that they are young and provided with the opportunity to travel and see amazing places like South Africa.

I just got an email from Gerry reiterating the amount of effort that they put into finding a new line. I recall Gerry saying they did some of the classic lines there PRIOR to doing a first ascent. What is your problem with someone doing a first ascent? Were you planning to one day in the future possibly, maybe, hopefully do the line? I am pretty sure that if I were to go down there and put up a new line I wouldn't receive the same publicity/degradation that these guys are being attacked with.

The new ethics guide is great, it actually gives a good basis for the style of the area. HOWEVER, so long as there is a fully bolted sport route there, I think that you are going to find it difficult to stop people from placing bolts (at least one of two occasional ones). Don't get me wrong, I am all for preserving the area as a trad venue. From what I've heard there is ample opportunity for gear and so gear should be used.

Snort, I think you can try your best, but you are just not going to be able to keep South Africa all for yourself.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:35 am 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
Yellowwood has been there for decades. We have all had the opertunity to spot & open this line, using what ever ethics suit us. But we did not. Why now bitch about guys who did?

Bitching is such a South African thing. We should move away from it.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:51 am 
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So Derek are you bitching about our bitching? :eye:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:09 am 
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A few words from Gerry in an email to me which I think is appropriate to put here:

...Maybe the way it worked out brought some progress to the ethics discussion there and then it was something constructive, because it definitely worked the way you guessed in the forum. (Justin: I had warned Gerry to expect criticism about his route)

We tried to gather as much information about the YW before and found that fully bolted "New Born" and the descent rappel from Charles Edelstein with that massive chains and then we concluded that bolts used in a sensitive way may be accepted there. For example we would have never put a bolt in a Crag like Wolfberg or Tafelberg.

We established the route on Sunday 5. Sept. from the bottom and then continuously Redpointed it on Tuesday 7. Sept. after half a rainy day on Monday.
I already explained that to Hilton, because this was an open question of him, when I wrote to thank him for his statement.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:32 am 
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:lol:

Gerry wrote:
and the descent rappel from Charles Edelstein with that massive chains


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:07 am 
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So if I read the ethics thread - Mon Apr 16, 2007 http://www.climb.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5559 right. Jabulani needs to be chopped. :thumright


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