No worries, was just having fun, cheers

Q: Is Bronkhorstspruit a safe venue to visit/climb?

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Super safe! Its completely private land... i think? It's just very VERY wet

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remember the days when sex was safe and climbing was dangerous

my suggestion was an attempt to bring some humour into this dreadful situation but seriously, if we won't take action, who will? it's been said that evil prosper when good men do nothing! but you need to be very clear about it: it will be dangerous and you can get badly hurt or even die. and gratuitous violence will certainly only beget more violence. that's why i suggested to try and contract professionals who can successfully apprehend these okes like the guys of mapogo. i'm against looking for trouble, but if trouble is unchecked & out there it might come looking for you...

another point is that there is such a thing as god's protection and i'm growing in the consciousness and power of it. i've experienced divine intervention a number of times the last 3/4-years (not some might-be stuff; real miracles okay). it does not make you invulnerable or presumptous; but in dangerous times will you only trust in man? life is very fragile. pls do not let this statement degenerate into a anti-god-faith-religion stream. pm me if you'd really like to chat about it - would love to share my experience

I watched this great documentary, 'And god grew tired of us'.

The title of the documentary is a quote from John Dau discussing the despair he and other Sudanese felt during the civil war.


In 1987, Sudan's Muslim government pronounced death to all males in the Christian south: 27,000 boys fled to Ethiopia on foot. In 1991, they were forced to flee to Kenya; 12,000 survived to live in a U.N. camp in Kakuma. Archival footage documents the 1,000 mile flight; we see life in the camp. We follow three young men who repatriate to the U.S. John Bul Dau goes to Syracuse, and by the film's end, becomes a spokesperson for the Lost Boys and Lost Girls of Sudan; Daniel Abol Pach and Panther Bior go to Pittsburgh. All work several jobs, send money back to the camp, search for relatives lost in the civil war, acclimatize to the U.S., seek an education, and miss their homeland.

I guess my point is if God the all powerful God didn't really have time to protect the 15000 young innocent boys that lost their lives I wander if he really will have time to protect little old me.

I know he works in mysterious ways but some bs boggles my simple mind...

he dude, i hear you.... history is filled with the slaughter of innocents; regardless of faith, race or culture.... christianity proudly remember the martyrs (i have no such ambitions yet ) anybody who claims to have all the answers is probably lying....

but i can tell about the time when i woke up at 3am, right in the middle of a dream of my friends G&C being viciously attacked by 3 bushpigs.... which attack was actually happening at that very minute in their house 1500kms away..... only it was guys and not bushpigs all high on tik & carrying sharp spears as weapons. they left G bleeding on the floor and pursued C into the garden as she tried to flee.... the goal was to rape her (gang initiation). they cornered her and at that time prayer like a volcano thundered in my spirit while sitting on my bed; unaware of the real events but knowing that something was desperately wrong... C told me later that in an instant all fear left her; she turned around; looked these guys who stood there with their spears raised in the eye and said in a loud voice "in the name of jesus christ you will not touch me". they dropped their weapons, screamed and ran off into the night; falling in their hurried attempt to get over the wall. and there she stood, completely "alone" - a bloodied G arrived only 5mins later and help after a further 10mins.

i do not have all the answers my friend, but what happened is real. it is not a cheap formula; not a quick distress call; it is something very real and very available. C wrote a poem about it (she's a published poet & writer).

In die nag het ek Jou naam geroep

in die nag het ek Jou naam geroep
uit ‘n stad, grou van verrotting
het Jy gekom
deur die roetstrate van Langa
oor die roesdakke van Kayalitsha
verby die krotjies van Imizamo Yethu
het Jou asem soos ‘n ruiter gejaag
en die berge het gehurk
en die lug was broos gekneus
soos ‘n bloukol wat verkleur

in die nag het ek Jou naam geroep
en die klank het soos ‘n veldbrand versprei
oor die Twaalf Apostels se nekke
was die reuk van vlamme
en kraakdroë blare
en boomskelette
had die vorm van engele
toe Jou naam
soos ‘n vuurklip
uit my mond uit vlieg

in die nag het ek Jou naam geroep
toe die Aprilwind die bas van die bome afskil
en die vloere taai was van bloed
en bloed teen die kosyne,
het Jy na my gestorm
oor ‘n see van wolke
met blitse in Jou oë -
Jou baard en hare
vol vroegherfsreën

Jy het gekom
uit alle windrigtings
driftig soos ‘n bruidegom
met ‘n kleed van weerlig
oor die skouers;
oor plooiberge en stapelrots
het Jy gejaag
asof die sterre val
in die nag
toe ek Jou naam roep
en Jy sidderend van liefde
inskuif
tussen my nagrok
en drie rowers
wat op die vlug slaan
voor die dertien letters
van Jou naam

Is it really necessary to turn this into a religious punt guys? I find it really distasteful to bring your beliefs into this discussion. Why not keep your faith in god or whatever to yourselves and not dilute a very important thread about some serious, hateful crimes being committed.

You can do religion here... some of you will remember trad vs bouldering 2

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Climb ZA - Administrator

nah, don't think it was a punt. take it or leave it. you really think it is distasteful? my oh my, is faith becoming the new "f"-word.....

in matters of life and death it is absolutely 100% completely relevant. how i see people live in fear for a lack of faith. but as i said, i'm very happy to rather share / discuss on a personal level since open forums tend to see the discussion degenerate into what's-the-worst-i-can-pin-on-somebody-else's-beliefs.

i suppose we all have our stories of divine intervention, and that is good. However, divine intervention is not only within the realms of christianity. believe you me, many individuals from other religions have been miraculously saved by divine intervention when they prayed to the god of their hearts. what is important here is that we support Neil's effort of doing something... that might also be divine intervention in another way... or maybe even divine inspiration.

oure voir

sometimes i like to sling up a glock 22 instead of a BD no3 its about the same weight with 5 rounds in the mag!

ag guys, apologies for me digressing.... pls put up with this for one last thought..... (and apologies if you felt bombarded by me).... i just think its so sad that something so close & relevant & inclusive could be viewed with so much concern & even disdain. i have friends in many different philosophies & beliefs & religions and yet we find that we can share openly with great respect for each other's viewpoints. i got so excited when i typed my little story because it's actually good news: you are not alone & you are not screwed. when the odds and circumstances are loaded against you there is still hope. i hope it makes some sense.... signing-off on this one.

Have to say that I found the story interesting. Religion can be scary... and to this girls benefit it certainly paid off for her.

Have to add that the G19 might be preferred from a weight point of view + you can get a few extra rounds in the magazine (there were 6 of them remember
I'll stop there lest I start a 9mm vs .40mm discussion

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Climb ZA - Administrator

My bad, I didn't mean it to come off that way (your stories are really cool, and I enjoyed reading them.). I'm just worried that the discussion sways into a religious thing rather than the point that these guys were seriously threatened and traumatised. We need to find real, tangible solutions or we'll lose another crag (and nobody wants that). The story I read on iafrica said:
http://news.iafrica.com/sa/699086.html
This shows some real hatred and no amount of joking about glocks etc can take the chilling edge off it. Something needs to be done very quickly as these guys will be back for more. What is also of concern is that these guys had R40 k's worth of things stolen. Why are people taking such valuables to the crags?

Who owns this land that Choss is on, and what are they doing about it?

Hey Justin

I first read 40mm and I guess nobody would mess with you then. I guess you mean .40 inches.

Hey everyone

Just out of interest has anyone followed up with the police in the area and if so what is the official word.

If you are going to take your weapons with please be prepared to use them otherwise it will be taken away and the next guy is going to be shot. Also be prepared to have a murder inquest opened up against you. You will proberbly also have to go to court and be confronted by the deceased's family.

Cool story Mok.

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Fat men are harder to kidnap

Wayne,
Not advocating that anyone take up arms! .40mm is correct - See: 9mm vs .40mm

'Gung Ho' talk aside!
Please if you can, attend the meeting that Neil has setup. This is the best way to finding a peaceful and lasting solution.

Date and time:
MCSA JHB Section clubhouse (Corner Scott and Stirling street, Waverley) on Wed 2 Feb at 20:00 for 20:30.

The more people that show up at the meeting the better, you will show the land owner and any other authorities (assuming someone from the SAPS will be there) that you care (and this will go a long way).

Before I assume any more, This is from Neil's post above:

"The aim of the meeting is to pool resources and together find a solution to the growing crime problem that is currently the single biggest threat to sport climbing in Gauteng. We contacted the land owners and Mr Bill Murray will be at the meeting on their behalf. This is an open meeting and all are welcome. If you feel that you would like to be able to continue climbing at Choss, it is essential for you to be there..."

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Wayne, I think he is referring to how thin exactly the line is that the scumbags are walking.

We are allowed to make fun of him while he figures it out right?

Mok I object to your suggestion!

Anyway, I'm glad you guys are still alive, but I too am getting fed up with these good for nothing assholes. It is really hard to know what to do in these situations. We have to fight back, but it is a big risk So, I'll add my voice to support the meeting.

The world needs more people like this. Prepared. Making a stand. No victim mentality
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-New ... C_Released

That would be nice Spike... it would be nicer if we have nice robbers like those who only wave their gun around, trying to hit the robbee with the flat side. Really? Paddle him with the flat side of your gun? AM. MA. TEURS.

Maybe they're still slightly worried about getting caught in contrast to our local flavour. The chance of actually landing in jail for robbing and/or killing someone here makes the whole fistfight thing seem like too much trouble. Just shooting remains popular in good 'ol SA.

Please note that there is a temporary closure in place for the Chosspile.

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Hi One of the crooks have been arrested. Please see other post on Chosspile for details.

So there was 1 mugging at Chosspile, and now there are signs saying that the cragg is closed and an army of climbers and MCSA delegates are meeting with the police? To do what? Increase police visibility at the cragg? Or put op signs saying "muggers not welcome"? I am not unsympathetic to the victims. I am sorry you had to go through such a horrible experience, and I am glad that you were not hurt, raped or murdered. But I do not think that a meeting will really solve the problem (although I still would like to attend, my opinions are not set in stone). It is common sense that in a country ridden with crime, people should not stroll about in small groups in deserted areas. It sounded like an opportunistic crime to me. Some vulnerable targets happened to cross paths with some desperate dudes who had knives. I highly doubt that there are gangs of robbers waiting behind the bushes of Chosspile for unsuspecting climbers to come by (for some reason I can't help but think of Robin Hood and his friends). Something like that could potentially happen in Fernkloof, Wigwam, Bronkies and so on. I don't see what local authorities can do to prevent a mugging from happening again. Its very sad that Wave Cave was lost due to crime. Obviously the location played a huge role. "Rich people" go for recreation and relaxation in a place surrounded by desperate people. Harties obviously also has its fair share of desperate people. That kind of stuff happens all over our country, the best thing we can do is move about in big groups while trying not to look too rich. At the risk of sounding like a hippie... I am of the opinion that crimes like these are the side effect of a materialist society and a part of me feels sorry for criminals. How do we treat the guys sitting on the side of the road when we walk past them on our way to climb? We treat them like stray dogs because they are poor and uneducated and we do not like to come face to face with their desperation. Of what use is a moral compass to them? They can either sit by the road and try to get you to buy whatever crap they are selling or they can rob you. Luckily only a few guys opted for option b.

WOW where to start with the comments here. Moving around in big groups just means that they will get more people on their side to Mug us. I think banding together and get the right people involved (the police) is a good place to start. The point that i am poor and you are rich that is why i rob people is biggest load of bull that i have ever heard of. It is a choice of each person. Yes I understand it is tough out there for a lot of people but that is no reason to in danger anybody life. When they make that choice I have no respect for them anymore and they should be treated like dogs. We need to make sure that we get the right people and not falsely accuse the wrong person.

Ansie, while I agree with many of your expressed sentiments, if you read the other thread about muggings at Choss you'll realise that that is exactly what has been happening. There are at least 3 recorded incidents by the same, particularly violent gang.
As always, there are many of us who bemoan the current status quo, while Niel is out there taking action to make a difference...

Yes a big thank you to Niel for making a diffence.

Ansie, Wow, thats somewhat of a moronic attitude you have.
Its that kind of apathy that lets a situation like this one escalate into something more serious. You say you are going to attend the meeting. I think thats a great idea. You may learn something.
Maybe your special brand of negativity is just who you are as a person, but i think a meeting is a great place to start to sort the problem out.
Have your say for sure, but if its neg bullshit, then rather stay away.
So whats your solution ? We are dying to hear...

No actually 3 in the last while. And I'm of the opinion that this isn't a common mugging - as in "I have a knife gimme your wallet". This is more like armed robbery - these guys MO is to ambush a group, tie them up, search them for valuables and weapons, take their ATM cards, get the PINS by threatening death, sending a guy to go draw their daily limits empty and then return to share the spoils. Not quite "desparate people who happen to cross paths".

I don't know what the meeting will achieve, but I'll be there to contribute whatever I can. Better than pretending there is no problem, blaming apartheid or pure chance.


Oh come on, all climbers do the same. Would you have had the same "You should've known this would happen" attitude if we had the same happen to us the last time we went down to the Waterfall at Boven?

Chosspile is hardly deserted. as you point out. In fact, the more deserted the place, the less chance of being mugged. Any muggins ever reported from Yellowwood? Blouberg?


It looks a lot more like well planned incidents by people who used the same MO to rob, or quite possibly the same people. Having caught one, hopefully the Brits SAPS can determine these things.

I ignore them. Muggers often use the friendly tactic to get you off guard so they can come close enough to strike.

When I start mugging people at knifepoint, I'll be able to share their point of view. Until then, I just hope they die. Soon. Quick. Doesn't matter how. Starvation will do. Whatever really.

Agreed.

Ansie, in case you didn't read any of the threads, the police actually managed to lay a trap for the gang and caught one of the members. This would never have been orchestrated without the help of people in this forum and the idea of a meeting for members at the MCSA. It is paramount that people work together on an issue so delicate as this in order to insure the future viability of locations like Chosspile.

I feel that this was one of those times where gasoline was just thrown on an already out of control fire and was completely unwarranted. We can't fix the system, but we can try to keep our own little part of it intact for as long as possible. Police from Brits are even interested in coming to the meeting in order to learn more about the venue, the events and how to control the risk. Meetings can make a huge difference on different levels within the systems in which we coexist. In fact, this is one of the few proactive initiations that has been taken to fight crime, along side with the Guard system at the wave cave (failed) and the catching of the criminals in Boven, which made a big difference to morale in the area.

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I hate this real world place... I'd be more than happy to live out there rather...

Bump

Don't forget the meeting tonight

Date and time:
MCSA JHB Section clubhouse (Corner Scott and Stirling street, Waverley) on Wed 2 Feb at 20:00 for 20:30.

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Climb ZA - Administrator