As expected there are lots of people dying or getting hurt in the mountains these days and I bet the rescue teams are too busy rescuing people and retrieving bodies to see much of the football games. What bugs me is that some people seem to think it is the mountain's fault. Mountains don't kill people, they don't make people do stupid things (no disrespect meant to anyone in particular, but it is true). The weather is unpredictable in the mountains, and you get tired quickly in the mountains - it takes a lot of energy to climb compared to lets say jogging around the block. But still it's not the mountains fault if you die. Asking "them" (who ever that is) to "close it down" is ridiculous. Maybe the problem is that people tend to think they are invincible or at least stronger / fitter / faster / smarter than they actually are. I don't think anyone likes reading about deaths or injuries in the mountains all the time, but maybe it will help to create a conciousness in people that they will think before they go into the mountains and accept that they might die - especially if they are unfit in what ever way. Off course experienced people die too, but at least they don't blame the mountain and they are far better at staying alive.

People getting lost so easily never cease to amaze me. Most of my friends get lost even in the Magaliesberg. It's quite fascinating to behold. I sometimes wonder what's the point of getting out into the mountains if you're not even looking around you to see where you are. Off course getting lost could be a serious problem, especially on high / cold mountains.

I think the best way to protect the people is to create a "negative" perception of mountains in a positive way (if that makes any sense). Basically we'd be better off if most people are absolutely terrified of mountains and subsequently stay out of 'em. Films like Into the Void should be encouraged and stuff like Cliffhanger, Mission Impossible and those sort of ridiculous movies where the superhero somehow manages to grab a ledge after falling 20 meters should be banned. Maybe we should even go so far as to post pictures of the "death zone" camp on Everest rather than the usual nice and majestic photos. We will then operate in a sort of underground movement (most people think we're nuts in any case) where we can enjoy the mountains for what they really are. We can have recruiting programs to get prospective members to migrate over to the light side. The programs will obviously have the additional function to teach people how to read a compass, map, stars and sun and in general just teach them to open their eyes and engage their brains. With a little bit of effort we could maybe even succeed in convincing the world that Table Mountain doesn't actually exist and that it is simply an optical illusion.

Back to being slightly more serious, shouldn't "they" rather ban 4X4s in the mountains if we really have to ban something. That way we will prevent lots of unfit people going places where they rather should not be for their own safety's sake. Leave the mountains to the people who love them enough to get off their arses and walk. Mountains needs to be shown more respect, we are trespassing in the first place, so the least we can do is not damage the place and show it respect by not breaking it down to our level. I know not everyone sees it the way I do, but mountains are where I go to find sanctuary.

For the record, I would prefer dying in the mountains. It sounds more attractive than dying on the way there. I obviously wouldn't want to cause too much trouble to the rescue people - who are doing a selfless and honourable job in my opinion - but if my body could be salvaged (to prevent water contamination off course), I would really appreciate it if you would put me on a raft and push me into the ocean, then set it on fire. Dusk would be the best time for this as it will create a nice spectacle for the ensuing beach party. The next day my gear can be auctioned and the profit must go into chopping bolts.

Disclaimer: If I see death a little different than you or if you feel offended, please forgive me and ignore me. I don't mean any disrespect to the dead or their survivors, but you are welcome to let rip in a scathing response if it makes you feel any better. If you on the other hand have a good idea to keep DEATH from the mountains, please share it

Yes Shorti,
Before anybody

Be reminded that the family and friends of the mountain fatalities of the weekend are currently in great emotional pain. Many of them may visit this forum.

Please be sensitive and sensible in your posts.

Thanks Hann, I tried to do that. Obviously it is terrible to loose someone close to you, but I tried to keep it light hearted, because I figured that is the best way to go about it. I don't know how it must feel for them, but I'm sure if someone close to me dies (in the mountains to keep it relevant) I'll be heart broken, but I would most of all like to celebrate that person's life and I would want to be consoled by the idea that they at least died in a wondrous place, free from criminals, long sickbeds and drunken drivers. I don't think it is a good idea to get angry at mountains when someone dies, it won't help, I know it is easier said than done. I suppose I should rather have said nothing, but I too don't want to see people die in the mountains.

What both of you said is true... Thanx for saying it!

Someone should be sensitive to those in mourning, and someone should say something to people who think the outdoors is tame... Only a lucky, blessed few survive a mishap out there. And most mishaps could be avoided with a little planning and foresight.

But then some accidents happen, and all you can do is try and deal with it...

All the best for those who mourn! God bless.

j

I agree with the first post. There have been calls in the past in 4x4 circles to make that particular mountain "safer". I'm strongly against those sort of calls.
I'd hate to see safety barriers and the proverbial hotdog stand up there

I think the underlying problem is that people don't take the necessary precaution and mess around up there (on that particular mountain) as if they are playing in the park. I've seen young kids running around playing games unattended with that massive cliff right there.

You're voluntarily driving up a high MOUNTAIN after all. The mountain has edges.
It's the edges of mountains that are dangerous and if you go near the edge then you're taking a risk. Respect that risk. Or stay at home.

No disrespect to the loved ones, and very sincere condolences
Just calling a spade a spade. When we go out the front door every day we must take responsibility and be careful.

Wow what kind of forum is this!!! How come every time someone dies in the mountains some idiot has something stupid to say, what the f is wrong with you people! Where is your humanity?

It's an internet forum written in PHP, this specific product was created by http://www.phpbb.com.

In all seriousness, take it easy jgb. It's a bit like the preacher preaching about hell at a funeral - it does not always go down so well, but like a good friend said, he's trying to sell heaven and it's an effective time to pitch it.

Shorti is trying to sell a safer attitude when heading outdoors.

Condolences to the families.

I agree with JGB. Don't think that this kind of thread is at all constructive at this time.

_________________
Fat men are harder to kidnap

I will attempt to wipe my feet before I step on someone’s feeling. Never quite sure if you should get a lawyer to draft a preamble and disclaimer, change the names and places to protect the innocent and hand out Kleenex for everybody else…

Shorty makes a valid point. We market adventure with smart gear and colorful advertising. Danger has been marketed as being “bad ass” and something to be proud about. In other words people are lead to believe that money can get you “out there” .. and if it all goes wrong.. money can get you out, again.

Only thing that will save you when the glue comes undone on your adventure is skills. These can unfortunately not be bought but have to be learnt and that kind of flies in the face of our instant gratification culture.

Invest in skills, read all you can, do courses. The adventure will probably not be so great after that, no stupid mishaps to talk about over a beer with friends. But hey , you will live to tell the tale!

Maybe I’m wrong, maybe I have offended and maybe its just my opinion. Maybe we should talk less about climbing and climb more..

Ok, just to clarify something, the recent deaths got me thinking about this, but I had the future in mind when I wrote my original post. I tried not to refer to specific tragedies, but rather ones I can see coming. I've come across so many people who are totally lost or are simply an accident waiting to happen. I'm not preaching from a high horse at all, I must be running out of luck as it is and difficult as it may be, I have to listen to my friends when they warn me. Two of them told me this weekend they would refuse to belay me and would rather stay away if I ever try to climb something stupid again. I think the repliers worded it better than me, so rather listen to them. Hann sent me a message explaining what people like Wayne and Jacques might think before they said what they thought and I get it now and feel bad about it. So, I'm sorry (you and any and everyone else that might feel like you). Thanks for your replies, you are right, this is not as constructive as I had hoped. I think we should let this thread die a slow death or delete it if needs be.

Spike, thanks for your efforts in the 4X4 community.

I hear where Shorti is coming from... in my mind this is a worthy topic and is in no way a disrespect to those who have passed in the mountains.
With regards to the thread being 'not being constructive at this time'. Its always unpleasant when people pass, so there really is no best time for this topic and it has everything to do with preserving humanity.

The truth is that the masses, both local and foreign are entering wilderness areas more and more and so the statistics will increase.
In Europe they have been through this and preventative measures have been put in place (barriers, steps, ladders, etc). In SA we are starting to put measures in place.

When an accident happens, generally an investigation is done and the cause determined. Dependant on the outcome preventative measures can be put in place to prevent any further accidents (this could be anything from a ladder to a warning sign).
One only needs to look at Indian Venster and Lions Head as example of places well travelled by tourists and novices. If it where not for the safety steps / staples / chains in place there would be many more accidents on these mountains.

From what I have heard the Mountain Rescue Teams have been quite active over the World Cup Season.
When going into the mountains do so with respect for your surroundings and be prepared. I think most of us have seen people heading up the mountain in shorts, flip flops, no water with cloud pouring over Lions Heads (indicating that the weather is about to turn!) and then ignoring us when we say "you need to turn around".

Photos below courtesy of http://www.highangle.co.za

_________________
Climb ZA - Administrator

Wayne & Jacques : I know you're concerned about the families and from what I can see no-one here is disregarding their feelings, however not making people aware of the dangers of the mountains is exactly what causes things like this.

No one is saying the people involved did not respect the mountain and its dangers, but many people don't.

Times like these when tragedies like these happen it is very important highlight the importance of safety as well as have respect for the dead.

Not saying anything will only help to increase the accidents.

My 2c

shorti you dimwit, even though we all appreciate the sensitivity of the issue, you are way to apologetic about what you said - methinks you wrote a truly eloquent and fun-to-read (& long) piece. sjap!

some pearls of wisdom:
Mountains are not fair or unfair - they are just dangerous. (Reinhold Messner)
The mountains will always be there, the trick is to make sure you are too. (Hervey Voge)

as to the issue of "the masses" in the mountains (or any other wilderness area) - could be good or bad. the "bad" is where it is turned into disneyland with accompanying strutures, noise, pollution, injuries & fatalities, issues etc. the "good" is the greater public awareness & appreciation of wilderness areas, the lower the risk of dodgy developers, miners etc. plouging it up for a few dirty bucks.

I didn't like Shorti's post as I felt it was insensitive, and have pmed him on why. So to make this constructive here is an idea - Justin could there be a thread on the home page about mountain safety and dangers that doesn't get bumped off.

_________________
Fat men are harder to kidnap

Wayne, Do you suggest this Mountain Safety Tread is editable by all?

Perhaps a link as per the advertisements.
This could like directly to WSAR and standard mountain safety equipment (torch, water, raincoat, etc)

Another possibility would a area and date specific link.
For instance:

Table Mountain:
Gear - Jacket, Water, etc......
Current Situation - Muggings on Contour path, India Venster path upgraded
Warning - Ice and Snow expected

on what might be a different topic - why is it that people get all weird about "respecting the dead"? if you want to really respect somebody, respect them while they are alive. it irks me when people get up at funerals and give these wonderful speeches about "how great a person" so-and-so was while they called that same person an idiot a week ago. i'm not suggesting its okay to be insensitive and make remarks that may offend / hurt loved ones and family, but some things in this thread hint to the "looking for a splinter in your brother's eye" phenomenon.

i think it i way more direspectful to mouth off in a public forum; insult people by calling them idiots etc. as opposed to saying people died because they did something dumb or weren't properly prepared or whatever the case may be.

Hey Hann
Er haven't thought that far. Open? with the first post being the commandments of mountain safety that you sent me and the rescue contact numbers, but the area and date specific is a better idea if someone has the time. Shorti you started this so whats your thoughts.

_________________
Fat men are harder to kidnap

Hey Shorti, glad to hear you thought about it and see my point of view. It takes a real man to see he may have made a mistake and apolagise. Sorry I called you stupid, I too can get a bit emotional and hit the send butten without thinking things thru. I understand where you wanted to go with your post. I am all for a discussion about conicle peak: access, closure, chains etc. Personally i am all for making it safe: be it with chains whatever. Would be beter than closing it. The general public should have some access to the mountains, not all of it but the mountains should be attainable to average joe to some degree, after all there's a CABLE CAR on table mountain?!

What has happened on that mountain in the last few years is absolutly tragic, it is almost unthinkalble what the poor families of those who have died must be going thru. There is a seven year old boy out there who watched his mother fall to her death!! PLEASE can all bear this in mind in future posts.

Somewhere in a tug of war between running away and getting acquainted with that live and let die concept I mentioned to you earlier

I think a Wiki page could work. Hann is probably the most level headed and experienced, so if he is willing, he can have a first go at it, then the rest of us can chip in until we are all happy with it. I also think a link on the front page is a good idea and about the info linked to a date - it sounds like a good idea, but I don't know how something like that can be done and maintained. Back on the wiki page, I think we should include as much as possible - e.g. warnings, safety tips, navigation, first aid, weather patterns ect.

Jacques and Mok, don't worry, I didn't take offence, after all I literally asked for it.

About, the "making it safe" process Jacques mentioned. It's not really always viable. Staples, chains and barriers only gets installed after people already died. Not to mention that invariably word gets out of the "safety features" and that lures even more people. It is as Mok says, not necessarily a bad thing in it self, but the problem comes in when these people (the new ones that don't realise the danger) trust the safety features will keep them alive. Take climbing for instance, we use safety equipment, but it won't keep us alive if we don't use it correctly or if we carry on carelessly because we are mos "protected". Kinda like condoms ain't it?

Mok, that thought of yours about respect also crossed my mind, but I don't think it will go down well here, so better we leave it for a camp fire. In short I try to not respect the dead more than when they were alive, but show respect to the dead in keeping in mind that they can't defend themselves (I'm not too good at this one). On another note, I liked those heavy quotes you mentioned.

Not to sound unwilling, nor ungracious concerning undue compliments....
But....
Oh, forkit, let’s give it a go...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that 1st we must understand that the only people who’ll be reached by this are those following this forum. (like, duh, ek sê)
Most people here are rock climbers so let’s try to narrow it down to that field.

Preparation
1) Don’t go alone
2) Tell people where you are going and when you’ll be back
3) Take adequate weather protection (a black bag over your shoulders will not cut it)
4) Be sensible what you climb, and who you lead. (I witnessed a climber take a non-climber up a slippery slope at 2de waterfall in Jonkershoek this weekend. The same spot where the majority of rescues in Stellenbosch has been, doing exactly what the majority of rescue patients were doing.
But I've done many a more foolish thing too, still do)

Event
5) Getting lost/benighted
- Stay on the path.
- Take a map, a compass and a torch.
- Stay put until daybreak.
6) Getting into bad weather
- Put on your weatherproof clothes
- Find shelter
7) Getting Stuck on rock route.
- Have self rescue gear with you.
- Know how to use self rescue gear
- There are courses available. At your local gym, and I think Ross Suter hosts some too.

Emergency / Sustaining injury
- Stay Calm
- Send for help
- WSAR 10177

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Please add some more, and lets see where this takes us.
Especially it those involved in WSAR or other rescue teams. please make yourself heard.

Recommended Gear

Day Hiking
1) Food and water
2) Backpack
3) Waterproof jacket
4) Fleece jacket (Down if you have)
5) Headlamp
6) Space Blanket (they're cheap and light. Take 2)
7) Map
8.) Toilet Paper
9) Lip Ice

Bouldering
- Same as Day Hike +
1) Boulder pad
- ok, I don't do much bouldering. Perhaps I'm not the best to comment.

Sport Climbing
- Same as Day Hike +
1) Substitute map for Route Guide of area
2) A helmet is a good idea, although not standard practice.
3) Jumpers in the car.
4) Bail Biners.
5) Prussic gear on multi pitch.

Trad Climbing
- Same as Day hike.
1) Take Route Guide AND map.
2) Leaver gear. (I just use nuts and an old screwgate)
3) Prussic gear NB NB NB.

_________________________
I dunno...
This feels really thin to me. But a start at least.

yeah hann; good list for climbers.

the mainstream tourism websites; cape nature & maybe even hiking sites is what our friendly visitors & local couch potatoes will google before they brave the dizzying heights of table mountain (or swim across the mighty apies). and, btw, these days people use gps; not compasses

some of the factors inherent in "accidents" are presumtion (like relying too much on weather forecasts); arrogance (i can handle anything attitude); irrational fear; simply being lazy and then somethings are just plain random "bad luck" (like rock breaking etc.) there is a wealth of information that is easily accessible on the web and if you care enough you will find it. for instance, i googled "table mountain hike"; got a link to places.co.za who posted this on their page:
"Please do not take short cuts, always carry off the mountain all bottles, bags and other litter that you carry up.
Restrictions - such as a prohibition on all fires and overnight camping - are strictly enforced and all users of the mountain must obey these rules.

Weather changes rapidly on the mountain and can be very different to that in the city below. No matter how settled the weather appears to be, never venture onto the mountain without a warm jersey, waterproof windcheater, map, compass, torch and spare food.

From October to March, gale-force south-east winds can blow and cover the mountain in thick mist. It is very easy to lose your way and become disorientated in mist.

The only predictable aspect of Table Mountain's weather is its unpredictability and rapid changes - be prepared!
Always stick to well-defined routes and avoid those that are dangerous."

oh yikes, they also recommend the compass

Ja,
Expensive, battery life of about 15hours, outdated software, etc

I had/have a couple of Garmins. Still prefer my Slingsby

I agree with shorti, what people tend to do (and the psychology is simple enough) is want some sort of action or retribution to what has happened "so that it will never happen again"

Lion eats man... kill lion
Person dies in car... reduce speed limits
Person dies on mountain...close mountain

This needs to be balanced with responsibility (I made a mistake I should have got out the car near the lions... I should have been watching the road...It was so regretable that he lost his footing). I think Jeremy Clarkson wrote an article at some stage and said something to the effect of "you cant make life safe" and why would you want to. If we prevented ourselves the possibility of experiencing those risky situations we would only be able to die of old age. I had a 70 year old friend who died of a heart attack while riding his superbike - I dont think ban bikes or he was to old to ride I just hope he enjoyed it.

So do what you want, prepare as best as you can and if darwinian law knocks on your door so be it.

Umm...Shorti

Please can you briefly & clearly state your main point/s.

Is it just random?

oh, how to speak my mind without it offending someone, somewhere. Snort, I need lessons in speaking my convictions - not submitting to general in-offensive (its a word, I promise).
But the main reason why I shall refrain from explicit views is that a forum of this sort has proven in the past that it is not the best medium for discussion - individuals just batter away, and rarely concede or learn anything. And there is, in all probability, no 'right' answer - more like many rightish views. The trick is pragmatism to each situation / area.

The bottom line is that there will be different camps - depending on where one sits relative to the 'tragedy's', and relative to where one sits wrt 'mountain experience'.

You cannot expect someone not schooled / exposed to certain conditions to be able to adapt to them, and herein lies the bulk of the issue - how to treat / manage these persons desire to experience new environments.

My concern is more selfish - what impact will an increase in mountain accidents have on the regular (and seasoned) practitioner of said 'sport'? The simple argument is that the more accessible an area, the more traffic it will see - and by default more accidents. Snort refers to this as the LCD, and it is a VERY valid point. But that does not necessarily mean we should not make area's accessible to the LCD. or does it?

I have just returned from Chamonix - known as the death-sport-capital of the world. I went willingly (again), eyes wide open and I take full cognizance of the situations to which I expose(d) myself to. Many, many others do not (realize the seriousness)- not by choice, but by ignorance...how to police such subjective variants? Whom to allow? Whom to deny? its an impossible question. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know / knew, which in turn implies that I, too, am ignorant at times?

As an aside, the PGHM (Chamonix rescue service) perform 1300 rescues annually - that is 3.5 rescues per day! There are many attributing factors to this statistic - human and environmental.

As another aside UIAGM mountain guides can be criminally charged if they do not attempt to 'educate' a climber at a crag if he is deemed to be performing bad climbing technique, and then has an accident (at the crag). Guides are duty-bound to look out for the ignorant.

My feeling is that shit happens - sometimes randomly, sometimes stupidly, sometimes regardless of the best prevention strategy. But always it happens. I have been on the bottom end of the rescue longline, and I have been (more than I care to have been) on the consoling side of things - dissecting and 'what-iffing' does not always solve things. What can be useful from a thread such as this, is to form an idea of what would be 'acceptable' and 'reasonable' measures for each unique area - there is a different approach needed for, say, india venster and a challenging and remote route (such as Mediocrity) in the hills. They attract different audiences, and thus require different 'management plans'.

Shorti says as much - "it is not the mountains fault", so if you are looking to point fingers look at the human element.

Personally, I love the French attitude. Go do whatever the hell you want, accept the consequences. It is as Mark says - there is a Darwinian primitiveness to it, but it evolves a culture of thinking for yourself, not being spoon-fed and babysat.

But that is just me.

I too

However,
For me the goal of this thread is to learn from the past.
Hopefully, one climber will read this thread and save WSAR one rainy-night trip up du Toits.

So check the weather,
Learn to prussic,
Pack you Gore-Tex, samies, poweraid and beanie,
and go have a good time...

2 blikke wurms hier…
What I get from this post is that we as climbers aren’t doing enough to educate the horizontal dweller before they hit the verticals. How do we go about doing this? Sure threads and post on websites will help US to say, after the fact “but it’s on the Interweb. Did you not read before you wandered?”
Who knows the statistics of how many of the “victims” of mountain incidents even know that a website exist that explains what you need in case of an emergency on Table Mountain? I guess very few.
I bet that even if the person reads the threads and sees the signs at the beginning of the footpath, there will still be people who go out there and end up on the otherside of Mountain Rescue’s caribiner. To take it further, if you close an area down, you will still get someone jumping the fence and probably at some stage get himself into trouble.
I hear Shorti’s argument load and clear. He speaks from experience. I am sorry for the people left behind. I am afraid that there will always be incidents in the mountains.
A possible control might be to handle it as it is done in some areas in the Berg. Sign the register (perhaps especially for Table Mountain) before you wander. Upon signing, you accept the terms and conditions which clearly state what gear you must have and that there might be trouble on your day out. If you don’t sign, Wilderness Search and rescue will bill you for their efforts. People often listen better if you threaten them to open their wallets.
After speaking to a mate who’s buddy died on Table Mountain not too long ago, his remark was that at least the guy died where he was most happy, in the mountains. Saying “Cheers” in the mountains might not be so bad after all.

I disagree.
It is not the responsibility of one climber to educate another climber/hiker.
The responsibility is with the person who choses to venture into the mountain to educate himself.


TM sees THOUSANDS of hikers.
There are many access points.
I don't think this realistically achievable.


As far as I understand Search and Rescue is free. Internationally.


I agree.
We are all going out someday. May as well be in a happy place.

Thanks Hann

Just to clarify

My viewpoint is not that we need to educate anyone. You need to take responsibility for your own actions. I was merely pointing out that the direction that the thread is taking kinda points to some kind of reference guide/website/thread etc that inexperienced hikers/climbers need before entering the mountains.

On the register - use it, don't use it...:
There are many entry points into the Berg as well, although defnitely not as many feet. I was just making a suggestion for some kind of control, although I'd hate it if ther power that be abuse something like this by charging people an entry fee

Agreed - Search and Rescue is free as far as I know in SA, but have you been to Cathkin Peak lately and read the signage before entering the berg? If I remember correctly it states that you might be liable to pay for the rescue services if you don't sign the register

Cheers

Marlo