Hey Juri, my brother from a different mother! Don't worry about the negitive vibes? I know that when I finally get back we'll go to Paarl and you'll probably flash Illearth with no particular problem. Just because we boulder, people reckon we aren't ard! How little they know...

No Neg vibe intended. Did I write \"Just because we boulder, people reckon we aren't ard! How little they know...\"? Or did \"guest\"? Those are your own insecurities that you are voicing.

aaah,the sore boulderer debate. dudes, every facet of our sport can get 'ard core! I've seen some sickening highball bouldering, bordering on solo climbing, I've seen some super hardcore sport climbing and yes, we all kno that trad can be hardcore too. On the other side of this coin, I've seen some lame ass bouldering, real softie material, some tosser sport [halucigenic comes to mind, as does strubens valley] and wimpy trad routes as well. It's just the manner which they are climbed. Roulette to me is an average 'ardcoreness trad route. you can lead it very safely. On the other hand, when I saw Jeremy soloing it, I dropped a load in my rods. It becomes seriously hardcore, so, the moral of the story is that the spirit which we climb a route can detrmine it's 'ardcore factor. Seriously tho, nothing is worth dying for and macho bolting is a crime, go find something 'arder. most of the time tho, my impression of boulderers is that they are elitist scared mommies boys who think that they are hardcore, but in fact, these are the same guys who 'once used to do sport' climbing, and now dont, but will be quite happy to sit in a bolting forum and carry on about it, like our wank head 'Juri'. I thank Dog you boulder too Juri you twat, but, why are you commenting on bolting then eh? Everyone carries on about bolts and blah blah, but what about the fact that it really doesnt make a shit of a diffs. The planet is eroding away all the time, you and I are gonna die in the next 60 years, global warming will melt the ice caps, really now, who gives a ufck? bolt it, dont bolt it, chop it, dont chop it. Hey if assholes like Kya sands can get away with so much blatent bs, then what are you gonna do when I install my nice shiny anchor station on your kak eroding crack in the middle of nowhere? you gonna sue me? you gonna chop it, so what....blah blah blah, lets stop bickering about this stupid shit now.

Ha Ha at least someone has retained a sense of humor in this thread!! Except, bugger! Now we have to log in to post which has ruined all the free for all guest-bashing-guest BS. Truthfully we got some rad f-in rock in this country and, yeah, we only here on earth for such a short time, so lets just go rip it up (the rock that is doofus!). Who gives a toss about how Joe soap climbs or whether he climbs huge mountains, steep sport, or tiny boulders. There are far worse problems facing us on this planet than bolted cracks!!!

Every visiting climber I speak to raves about the quality and quantity of our rock. Just get out and do your thang, people slagging others off are just demonstrating their lack of consciousness evolution. Peace in the hills.

Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

The planet is eroding away all the time, you and I are gonna die in the next 60 years, global warming, melting ice caps & globalisation

AND now we are not free to bitch about on a climbing forum....what is the world coming to?

Chaps if you are not intrested it the topic, stay off it \"who gives a ufck?\" You are quite correct it has no real value, but climbing as a whole is entirly pointless. So why not add a pointless forum discussion to it?

Hmm dunno about being more evolved (its a constant striving fraut with mistakes isnt it?) but at least I can say when I am wrong. All the slagging is stoopid but also entertaining, provided you dont take it too seriously. At least for my part writing nasty crap here is a sure sign that I havent been out the house and in the hills enough. Climbing in Montagu with some Euros this weekend (and having a great time) made me realise we are so lucky to have all this rock around us. Some people live in flat countries (god forbid) and drive like six hours to get to any rock at all!

in response let us not forget what a utterly trivial and superfluous pursuit
we all etch gholastic dilemnas upon. Climbing is a nonsense, other men
have their Anna....
I love climbing and especially in SA. In Britain we have had good fortune in the reduced number of bolted climbs. I go to the continent and never ceased to be bemused by the number of bolts, but having ticked the monster rock Penon De Ifach in Calpe, Spain I would hapilly speculale
that this would be one tick I would still not be striking without bolts or clips or chains or whatever. It is impossible to judge definately, only to police and ensure a fair boundary between the two sports.
I have always advocated... what is hewn by the hand of nature leave alone. What is forced by the machiavallian acts of man then bolt as what has been made ugly can withstand further degradation!

First up, I am pretty much a sport climber. Started trad in the dark ages when there was no real bolting going on, and whatever bolts that were placed, were done by hand with one of those historic Petzl 'pound it till your hands are blistered' jobs.

A serious disincentive for overbolting if there ever was one.........

Sport only really started off in '90 or so, and to be honest, I climbed in boots and all. Trad was/is great, but for sure sport suited me better.

But, and this is a reasonably big but, a fair bit more respect was then given given to trad routes (existing and prospective), irrespective of the location of the crag.

Later we had crags develop that were acknowledged as sport only, and Boven is a good example. But what started as a good idea, somewhere along the line lost the plot.

Initially Boven development was driven by ex-trad climbers, that had a fair degree of hard trad behind them (Lobster, Muv, Slop, Richard et al). The routes bolted were pretty much sportable only, and (my personal favorite) they were sportingly bolted...read: screw up to your hearts contect, you're safe, but 'out there' enough to make you pay attention to the job at hand.

Later as sport climbing became more mainstrean and accessible, and as the more obvious 'sportable only' lines started to peter out, the inevitable uptick in questionable bolting began to occur i.e. either the bolting of a new line that could be opened on trad, or perhaps the retro-bolting of old trad lines.

At the level of Boven one can perhaps make a case for this being acceptable (I am deliberately not using the word desirable).....but overbolting aside, you are going to be hard pressed to convince me as to the merit in some of the arb 'routes' that have been bolted.

Don't get me wrong, we ALL at some stage open a route that if frankly a waste of metal and time, but individual climbers averages in this regard differ markedly.

And when you then overbolt a cr@p line, and continue to repeat this simply because you can, then the silliness begins to spiral.

I agree with the above comment re Strubens, sure it is accessible and consumer, but is also an excellent example of 'lines' (they are not even routes) that are both contrived and overbolted.

And the very real danger is that anyone that gets introduced to climbing via this venue is going to have a very bad introduction to bolting practices in general. And this then gets translated to the next crag, and so on and so forth.

My take after a 12 year layoff is that there is some serious overbolting and overgrading going down, admittedly more often than not crag and individual specific. And it is a pity, because all that we are doing is dumbing down the system and allowing new climbers to legitimately screw things up going forward. I get despondant when I do a '23' at the Chosspile, and there is no way in hell it is even 21. It is all very flattering, but really............

I get grumpy when I am approached as to whether I would mind if a route I opened on trad in the Kloof's may be bolted. If I wanted it bolted I would have done so at the time.

And this is rich, seeing as I had Trippletwit chop bolts on a route of mine in Hidden Kloof (The Perpetrator, 23), because he felt that it was naturally protectable. And he was right, so I went back, drilled out the stubs, epoxied rock dust into the holes and re-opened it on trad....interesting lead, but certainly safe.

I've bolted a bit, and have done a good few lines at Boven, you know....the kind that people tend to acknowledge as being worth remebering (try 'Jump In The Fire' for a fun afternoon). Sure, not all lines that we open are going to be super classic, but for sure we need to show some degree of responsibility when it comes to judgement.

From my perspective I would rather open fewer quality routes than more indifferent ones.

Oh yes, and on retro-bolting....please would someone go and retro 'Raging Bull' in Tonq's, my backside is still stinging from a month back? And this is very tongue-in-cheeck.......

_________________
John

Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Well I never! A thread that despite all attempts to derail it has come back on track! I second Guest's request that people think really, really long and hard before putting in bolts. They do not last forever and any addition to the heap will have to be maintained in years to come. If you see a rad line, get on it on toprope, and check it out thoroughly. Toprope loads of lines and then just pick one or two that are the best. Also have a look at the rest of the crag, is it any good? Because sure as nuts more lines will sprout steel next to your route. People are lazy and hey, its good to have more than one route at a crag right? Maybe, but only if they are worth climbing.

Inner city crags will always get overbolted with less than perfect lines being equipped. Peolple want entertaiment and more routes close to home is a bonus for when time is short. But please guys leave that attitude in the city, at the mountain crags and other special places such as Boven lets just equip the absolute best sporty lines. Leave the cracks and other tradable lines alone and definitely dont bother with substandard routes. In this way these wonderful natural places will be enhanced (at least from a climbers perspective), not dragged down into the mire of consumerism and greed.

Ma nature tooks hundreds of thousands years to create our vetical (and steeper!) playgrounds, it only takes minutes for some fool with a drill to f-ck them up!!!

In case George missed this one

I'm really surprised that any of you ever get to do any climbing, with all the crap being spoken on this forum.
To be perfectly honest, one theme stands out when you read thru this as a 'non-forum' person. And that is that everyone is so concerned about the whole hard-man big balls image. Forget that shit. There are a lot of things that take hard men and big balls, but very few climbers fall into that catagory.

Chose your ethics, stick by them, and go out and climb for the fun of climbing. Compete if you must, but forget trading insults and punches over ethics. And forget getting any descent responses whilst you sign yourself as 'guest'. Because the guys whose responses would be of value are probably too busy climbing and enjoying themselves to join this mud slinging match daily.

If you want to see hard men, try people like Mike Horn, Borge Ousland, Messner, etc, and probably most SAS soldiers.

If you want steel balls, look to the Valentino Rossi's, Pierfrancesco Chilli's of the world, and maybe a few BASE jumpers.
Otherwise, go climb, and make sure the younsters you meet at the crags understand your views on bolting / trad lines etc etc. Because man, this forum-bitching is so boring.

Jeff

If it is boring you then F--- Off... go climbing( at 22H00). Go and read your SAS books. Who gives a f--- about the SAS...none of us are in the SAS.
We don't want steel balls, most of us are just ordinary Joes.

Man this is all getting too Jerry Springer!!
J this is not crap and concerns the future of our climbing. No one cares about the big balls image, it's just the ethics that are being discussed and if you interpret it that way that's your problem.

True words Stu, in fact its more the opposite of he-manism, more like humanism. Feeling in awe of and humbled by nature, accepting the challenges provided. For sure go out and climb, but in a synergistic way impacting as little as possible.

It would also be lank cool to see more people being introduced to trad from the start. Nothing wrong with trad routes sitting next to sport, works fine. Hell if you really want to go the convenience route just placing lower offs right at the top of the crack, or a shared abseil station would allow the traddies super quick turnover on routes and allow the gearless to toprope the line safely. Obvoiusly clifftop conditions would dictate exactly what was possible, but this approach would give one convenience and minimize the amount of bolts. Less work for the developer, and you can open more routes for the same cost.

PS I just got back from climbing Jeff.

Hi All

Just want to apologise about my rather strongly worded last post. ( Sorry you took it so personally Marshall)
I occasionally pop into the forums to try and get some inspiration and some of the 'good stuff', considering the level of some of the guys posting, Juz, Andy Davies, Wiercx, Etc Etc, but always seem to pick the forums and topics which end in slinging matches, and strangely, it's the climbing forums which result in guys getting quite abusive and aggro.

But...I guess its and indication of the character-types who are involved with climbing, and my last post venting some steam was hardly going to spead inspiration. Apologies.

Jeff

Jeff, I enjoy the discussion on the forum, some of the stuff is valid to me...stuff I'm grapling with. In the EC there are very few climbers, scattered into quite a few towns. So its nice to hear fresh input. If some thing does not intrest me I just leave it. If I have nothing to add I just leave it. Why crash a discussion....if you are bored with it?

There is a mix of climbers who post: well known, unknown, new, old, maybe an SAS man or 2...all have an opertunity to express themselves. You must understand that even all the \"hard men\" that you named are just normal fellows who once in every while get to do some thing cool. The rest of the time they get up, have breakfast, read the paper and go to work. Even most SAS soldiers.
\"strangely, it's the climbing forums which result in guys getting quite abusive and aggro.\" ??? Do you mean...climbers who use the forums are more likely to beat their wives & get into fights at the local pub. Unlikely

Hiya Marshall

I certainly did,nt mean that sort of aggressive or abusive, I guess I was referring to some of the posts which were having a go at guys like Keith on what seemed to be quite a personal note. I have visited forums involving a few sports and I have not seen guys getting their cages rattled as fast as some people in the climbing fraternity. But hey, as I mentioned, it probably has a lot to do with the personality types in the different sports.

The posts that got me going were some of the 'guest' posts who had a go at Keith on a very aggro note, and here is a quote cut from the one post..

\" I am yet to climb a KJ route and think it was cool. He either bolts the biggest piece of shit line or when he finds a good one, he probably topropes it to death, then macho bolts it so his friends can think he's brave and kool. The sweat in his jocks can then help his tiny shrivelled raisen nuts fill out a bit.\" Does anyone wonder why Keith doesnt respond?

Wiercx, Andy and co are all mates of mine, and I'm sure they would have a chuckle at me having used them as examples. I do'nt consider myself an old fart, but have been climbing since the 80's ( when Wiercx was really a hard man, he's turned into a bit of a softie now ) and have listened to this climbers getting aggro with one another over ego's and small things.

I'm all for the bolting debate Marshall, it must go on because it means the new guys care! But I guess I'm just tired of seeing people getting personal and aggro over it. In retrospect, I realised my post had been harsh, with some bad examples, but I apologised, and signed it with my name. Hopefully we can move on, climb, debate bad crack lines, and maybe even have a beer at the crags.

Jeff.

Agreed Jeff, guest qouted above was over the top in his response. I have met Keith and like him as person, but I lay into him coz hes doing things I strongly disagree with. In 'A Bit Embarrassing' I even get personal tuning him and Tony to come up TM for some trad lessons! I hope they can see the humor in this? I also hope that they pick up on the comments made by me and others and adjust their approach accordingly? Keith is an old school dude however, I wonder if he even surfs the i-net?? Wot a hodge podge of personalities our sport is!