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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:05 pm 
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Stunned, Amazed and in absolute Awe of such a brazen act.

After the ruthless slagging dished out to our Charles Edelstein,
for attempting to corrupt the rock for a small cam placement,
in a bold, steep and seldom visited part of our mountain.

To bolt an anchor! On one of the most frequented routes on our mountain.
Way to shove your middle finger in the climbing community's face.
You can ever see it from the Cable Car.

Balls of Steel!!
(or living in a hash pipe)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:42 pm 
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I don't want to believe you Dave, but give us some details / pic.... You know ARF has an angle grinder. Maybe someone was just doing a dry run for April 1st?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:10 pm 
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Apologise if I came out guns blazing.

In my view it's a pretty badly concieved of Anchor.
There's gear there and if you're gonna go to the drill,
I could think of a few better options.

I'm personally against bolted climbing anchors on T.M.
and truly believe there should be some concensus.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:35 pm 
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Real Name: Craig de Villiers
oh boiiii... here we go! *Dons the boxing gloves* :twisted:

Who would want to put bolts there, and WHY?????


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:52 am 
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Real Name: CityROCK
Raumer glue-ins nogal. at least they followed ARF protocol. probably bought from us. maybe we ought to start keeping serial numbers like gun shops have to?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:59 am 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
I am intrigued as to what motivated these placements other than professional time and money wasting. Andy can you smack these off with a hammer?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:41 am 
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Firstly, I see the one anchor is sticking out by a centimetre! Very poor effort and the guilty party needs to have their butts kicked. If you're going to place an anchor do it properly. Glue in anchors are tricky to place which is why ARF does NOT recommend them for general use - there is nothing wrong with a normal Hilti / Fischer stainles steel express anchor.

Secondly there has been some debate about TM rap anchors in the backroom, and a possible policy for this. If you would like to add your dissent / support then you can contact our chief, Julia Wakeling, through the MCSA email: mcsacapetown@iafrica.com

Personally I believe these anchors should be chopped. Like I said ARF has a battery powered angle grinder :evil:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:56 am 
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Real Name: Matthew Bickell
I was up there on Sunday (9 Oct) and I don't remember seeing those, but I may have missed them since I obviously wasn't keeping an eye out for anchors. If they weren't there though then they must have been placed this week...the plot thickens


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:57 am 
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CHOP THEM!

Agree with Andy....
Andy Davies wrote:
Very poor effort and the guilty party needs to have their butts kicked


Some Ass Wippin is in order :twisted:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:13 am 
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Real Name: Lee de Smidt
Andy Davies wrote:
Firstly, I see the one anchor is sticking out by a centimetre!


Maybe they used PPC cement too.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:10 am 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Howell
I am strongly against bolts on TM!

However, these anchors do make the top section safer. The was a serious accident there a few years ago.

I don't see how two tiny bolts affect the aesthetics of TM when they are surrounded by buildings, poles, cables, oil and machinery.

They shouldn't have been placed at all, but now that they are there, leave them in. They could save a life.

Charles Howell


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:15 am 
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Real Name: Klimkop - Ricko
Bolts are like cockroaches. There's a song done by Waddy Jones when Max Normal still existed. It goes:"one cockroach leads to more cockroaches"

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:27 am 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
To CHowell, I cannot see how those bolts in that position could possibly save a life. They are on a large ledge where one can sling boulders, place nuts and cams and there is even a small very tough tree right there that one can sling. If anything they may be dangerous if they are not properly placed and people rely on them.

I have three kids and once a precedent has been set for anything, it is almost impossible to reverse it.

I also do medico-legal work where legal precedents supersede science.

And when it comes to bolts, the same holds. A precedent tends to be irreversible. Bolts beget bolts.

Unless a reasonable justification is made for those bolts, they have to go. I simply cannot see what justification there can be. You cannot abseil off them. You don't need them for belaying. What are they for?

The argument that the mountain is trashed may be valid, but so far the character and quality of ledge climbing is not!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:31 am 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
The only reason that I can think that they were placed is by someone who has a commercial interest in having them there, i.e. a professional guide that likes the idea having a quick clip in. And if that is so then that sucks.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:56 am 
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Real Name: Craig de Villiers
I Have to agree with Snort, and Klimkop on this one... if these bolts are allowed to stay, then whoever feels like throwing in some bolts because they feel like it, will feel justified! and not too long from now Jacobs Ladder will be more of a step ladder of bolts, than a classic!

Are there legal implications of placing new bolts on TM, isn't it protected in some way?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:18 pm 
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SNORT "I have three kids and once a precedent has been set for anything, it is almost impossible to reverse it"

Is the wife pregnant again boet? Getting a bit old for that now aren't we? :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:46 pm 
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Real Name: Henk Grobler
Those bolts must go. No argument. Shame on the person who did this.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Andy it's not having the kids, it is setting precedents for them. Try telling your 10 year old to go to bed before 830 when you let them stay up later just once!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:30 pm 
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Marshall must be off bolting new routes, so in his stead:

"If it matters enough to you, go chop them. If it doesn't, then leave them"

David, regarding consensus: The person who placed these will use the Abseil Africa bolts (yes they have bolted TM!!) as justification, they will use "safety" (even though, as Snort points out, there are loads of natural placements and anchors right there), they will use the bolts on Bombay Duck (are they still there??), blah blah blah blah. The climbing community, the tourists, the cable car, the restaurant etc etc have made TM less pure than say the Cederberg. Even if you can reach some consensus (between whom exactly??), it will be something along the lines of "ok we're chopping these, but the other ones can stay" or "ok, these can stay, but no more" - whatever your "consensus", it will not be shared by everyone, and it certainly will not be clear.

Really, if the bolts are a problem, chop them. That is a clear message.

@SNORT - disingenuous


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:29 pm 
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Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Thanks Pierre!

TM doesn't matter enough for me to make a comment. But if it matters to someone...chop!

If it matters+ ...Chop + Box!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:32 pm 
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TADAAAAA!

Anytime :thumleft:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:19 pm 
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Hi Pierre and Marshall,
(As you profess to act in his stead).

I believe the bolting etic for Table Mountain is quite well known.

There are of course bolted abseil anchors that were agreed upon, through a form of consensus.
Andy will probably be able to shed some more light on the process for placing bolts in TMNP.

Regarding your concern for the bolts mentioned…
- There was much discussion on the re-bolting of the abseil anchors and replacement of the ‘dodgybong’, which was conducted under the guidance of the ARF.
- I’ve been led to understand that Abseil Africa, paid a considerable price to TMNP and the Cableway company, for their operations.
I’ve met the owner and he explained to me that they made a considerable effort and went to great lengths to appease the climbing community, held discussions with the MCSA and sought the advise of a number of regular T.M. climbers of the time, before beginning their operation.
- The bolts initially placed above Bombay Duck (to replace the chock stone abseil) were ‘chopped’, the bolter reprimanded and following a heated debate on the pro’s and con’s of these bolts. They were replaced in a slightly better position.

I don’t believe there’s ever been a bolted climbing anchor.

Ethic’s, Morality and Consensus change over time.

Mike Scott placed a bolt on bolterguise. Greg Lacey chopped it and then freed the route.
They were T.M.’s top climbers of the day and for them the matter was settled.
More recently…
Charles, one of T.M.’s most outstanding climbers of today, attempted to broaden a crack for an alien placement. He defended his actions as far as he possibly could, but yielded to the ‘consensus’ that it was un-ethical.

So Pierre/Marshall, don’t you think it a little bold and rather rude to anonymously bolt a climbing anchor on a mountain were the prevailing ethic is well known to be against such actions?
and do you really feel this is the best solution for Arrow Final’s loose ledge?

I think the Bolter should go chop them.
(with a hand held file)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:57 pm 
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David, I think you misunderstand me somewhat. I'm saying, if they should not be there GO CHOP THEM. Make it public that whoever is lugging their drill up there, is wasting their effort, their time and their rather expensive looking (looks like Raumer glue-ins?) bolts.

David Vallet wrote:
So Pierre/Marshall, don’t you think it a little bold and rather rude to anonymously bolt a climbing anchor on a mountain were the prevailing ethic is well known to be against such actions?

HELL YES - Personally I think it ludicrous.

David Vallet wrote:
and do you really feel this is the best solution for Arrow Final’s loose ledge?

HELL NO.

David Vallet wrote:
I believe the bolting etic for Table Mountain is quite well known.

There is a lot of evidence for both sides (pro-bolting & anti-bolting). There certainly is precendent for bolters and choppers. You're not going to please anyone with talking. CHOPPITY CHOP will sort it out. FINISH AND KLAAR. Do you agree?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:03 pm 
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Chop them. Don't debate the issue. TM has always been a bolt free zone. Its just too much of a slippery slope. One bolted anchor = many bolts. This will be a deterrent in the future.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:22 pm 
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Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
David, action...not more words. If it matters...do something about it. Tell us what you have done.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:52 am 
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Real Name: Lee de Smidt
Leebo wrote:

Maybe they used PPC cement too.


This was a pretty close minded statement. My apologies to the whoever place the bolts, there may have been other factors at play that didn't allow for proper placement.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:20 pm 
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Real Name: ClimbRat
CUT one anchor cut all on TM , have seen a fair share of bolts on topouts to make life easy.Quake!!
Remember all you talkers.Procrastination is like masturbation , you'll just end up f#$%ing yourself.

Do something about or go read a Peoples magazine ,all you drama queens.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Hi Marshall,

As Pierre stated, "Make it public". I have done that.

So with the consent of the climbing community,
I will contact Andy next week and see if I can borrow the ARF angle grinder.
(Unless the someone else wants to save me the effort)

The forum is open and there is still time for the Bolting Party and/or those people
for the bolts. To make thier case.

Later
D


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:07 pm 
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Location: cape town
Dave good for you for letting us all know! You shouldn't have to go chop the bolts the wanker who put them there should and he should be fined! There are rules about bolting as you wish on TM.

If I had to go chop the bolts I would but then I better not ever bump into the guy that placed them because I'd want some pay back for my efforts and wasted time. Now I'm pretty sure a climber must have placed those bolts and surely some one knows who? Have the courage to name the person or whoever did it have the guts to come out and say so!

Maybe it's no big deal to some, but it is to me... I love the fact that I live in a place where I can surf in the morning and go for a climb in the afternoon, it's really is a unique and special place! Just an hour and a half's walk and I'm out of the city and in nature. We've often been up there on a climb and it feels like no-one else is on the mountain. Some how I have this feeling that if we let people bolt the mountain as they wish it won't be a good thing for all of us, for our children...Now i know i've probably waffled a bit but if you have ever been up there and experienced the pleasure of the place maybe you'd understand my feelings..


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:17 pm 
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Real Name: Jacques Breitenbach
[quote][/David wrote;
: I don’t believe there’s ever been a bolted climbing anchor.
quote]
I think David makes a very good point, there is a big difference between bolts used to assist a climb, (be this at the belay or to clip into while climbing) and absail anchors to get back down. These anchors are there to assist a climb and they should go. It will set a very bad example to leave these anchors in place, and will without doubt result in even more anchors.
CHOP THEM NOW!


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