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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:15 am 
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Real Name: Andy Court
Dear All

I was climbing on the weekend and I had a radical I dear. If every climber in Cape Town who uses Silvermine crag were to pay some money and that would go to putting permanent hangers at the top of all the routs. This would make cleaning a route allot faster. If this worked well at Silvermine and we had more hangers then we could put them up on other crags around the Cape Peninsula I don't know what a pair of hanger’s costs but if someone could get them at cost price somewhere or with a discount I think we could pull it off. I think there is already a fund called the re-bolt fund that focused on putting glue in bolts in and replacing the older more sharp bolts, maybe the re-bolt fund could organize this :?:

These are just some of my thoughts and I would be happy to contribute some money to make this happen. :thumright

Andy

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:24 am 
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I assume you're talking about something like the above?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:25 am 
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ya :thumright

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:13 am 
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Now thats what Im talking about! MMMM... very nifty. Slight small sack of ching needed to equip every route with those tho! The ones with the two single non-locking biners are better, locking biners can tend to sieze up with corrosion after a while making them no better than plain rings. As much as I disagree with experimental set-ups the arrangement the guys are using at the Mine may be the only affordable solution locally? There are major advantages, from a safety perspective (as well as convenience and speed of use), to be had from using this kind of anchor.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:31 am 
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Howdy guys
Xmod and Justin do you know who stocks similar to the photo and at what cost ? MMO website does not have anything like it and i don't think City Rock has either.
Any ideas ?
thanks gents


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:46 am 
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Hi Andy SURNAME? & co......

ARF made a decision not to use lower offs with carabiners as they wear a lot faster (8x) than the currently installed rings. I have personally seen some very badly worn lower-off carabiners in France. If you use a single one like Justin has illustrated, one day you will be gambling with your life.

I am quite perplexed about this whole "faster lower-off" thing. It takes 2 minutes to thread rings, and only for the last person on the climb - is it really so inconvenient? I thought climbing was supposed to be a recreational activity so why the rush? :)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:51 am 
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The only prohibiting factor on this suggestion is cost. I have been trying to find a way to alleviate the need to clean the chains of routes (call me lazy or just efficient).

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:30 pm 
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One of the problems with carabiner lower-offs is that the temptation is there for people to top-rope off them instead of off their own draws clipped into the anchors. I know that this causes much trouble with badly worn lower-offs at European crags.

I, personally, am a big fan of matched 'biner anchor combos. This gives you two independent 'biner connections to the top and aught to be quite safe, provided you watch the wear on the 'biners. This means educating people to not top-rope off installed hardware - not an easy task.

The advantage is that there is less untying from the rope (you'd be amazed how many people don't tie the rope back onto themselves while threading the anchors, and how many belayers dont bother to lock off the climber while the are clipped to the top anchors).

I do think there is merit on making cleaning a route as easy as possible, especially at "beginner" crags. I've hear horror stories of people stuffing up tying back into their rope at the top of climbs. I'm guessing this is exacerbated by the stress of doing a new sport with loads of gear to come to grips with?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Not wrote:
The advantage is that there is less untying from the rope (you'd be amazed how many people don't tie the rope back onto themselves while threading the anchors, and how many belayers dont bother to lock off the climber while the are clipped to the top anchors).


With the rings as installed by the ARF currently, it is not necessary to untie from the rope at all. When you get to the chains, clip in with slings/quickdraws to both bolts. Say "SAFE" (NOT "off belay", especially if your belayer is a traddie and a bit slow). Pull up a bight (loop) of rope, push the bight through both of the rings, then tie a fig-8 on the bight. Clip the bight to your belay loop with a locking biner. Check everything! Then untie the fig-8 attached to your harness, pull the tail of the rope through the rings and unclip and lower down. You are never disconnected from the rock.

Not wrote:
I do think there is merit on making cleaning a route as easy as possible, especially at "beginner" crags. I've hear horror stories of people stuffing up tying back into their rope at the top of climbs. I'm guessing this is exacerbated by the stress of doing a new sport with loads of gear to come to grips with?


Something like that. But if we make the anchors at beginner crags "easier" to use then they will never learn the correct procedure. Places like Lower Silvermine are actually excellent places for beginners to learn to clean route properly as someone experienced can stand at the top and check and advise them on each step.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:18 pm 
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Quote:
I do think there is merit on making cleaning a route as easy as possible, especially at "beginner" crags. I've hear horror stories of people stuffing up tying back into their rope at the top of climbs.


Beginners need solid mentoring by friends/clubs or consider paying a professional?

Problem comes when they have to move on to harder climbs. I think (in the wise words of Voytek :pirat: ) ... consistency is fashion. If anchors are more or less similar from one crag/country to the next, it makes things easier.

The first thing [new] climbers must realise is that the responsibility to make sure you get safely back lies with you. Fixed 'biners that wear down quickly will not be recognised as dangerous at beginner areas by new climbers and because these climbs get climbed a lot, it will speed up the wear...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:57 pm 
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I'm with Gustav and Andy Davis on that. And what Voytek said.

Ppl should learn the proper way from the beginning, and that usually entails going "manual" rather than "automatic", if you catch my drift. Not always the best to go the speedy way. What would happen on the day that you do climb at a venue that only has two separate hangers, and you're used to only clip into one nifty biner? Don't get me wrong, I think the single biner connected to two anchors are way cool and quick, but imho I would rather go the safer way and just learn or teach ppl how to tie-off and lower from two separate anchors from the get go...

:thumleft:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:43 pm 
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Here are a few other options for you:-
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:57 pm 
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Nic Le Maitre wrote:

With the rings as installed by the ARF currently, it is not necessary to untie from the rope at all. When you get to the chains, clip in with slings/quickdraws to both bolts. Say "SAFE" (NOT "off belay", especially if your belayer is a traddie and a bit slow). Pull up a bight (loop) of rope, push the bight through both of the rings, then tie a fig-8 on the bight. Clip the bight to your belay loop with a locking biner. Check everything! Then untie the fig-8 attached to your harness, pull the tail of the rope through the rings and unclip and lower down. You are never disconnected from the rock.




Thanks, this is a great technique! I was taught to clip onto the rings with quickdraws/slings and then untie and thread then retie I will use your technique from now on.
However, I prefer to abseil down every time possible to save my rope, any suggestions on techniques to do that safely?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:27 pm 
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Just got back to this thread. I think the time saved by clip in anchors is hugely important at high use crags. Climbing is so time consuming any time saving is welcome. Ive seen really badly worn ring anchors at French crags. The problem is usually caused by ppl (often guides) toproping straight off the rings to spare their own gear. So, the problem of wear is not limited to clip in biners but affects all anchor types. Additionally the biners, even the ones with the welded on retainer bar can easily be replaced when worn, replacing rings is more complicated needing cutting and welding to be used on the cliff. Surely the main issue influencing the choice of ARF top anchors is cost and nothing else? Personally I think clip in anchors on all high use crags would be fantastic to have.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:39 pm 
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nicolaasdekker wrote:
However, I prefer to abseil down every time possible to save my rope, any suggestions on techniques to do that safely?


If you want to abseil down you will have to untie as per usual and thread the rope through the anchors, pull up enough rope so the doubled rope reaches the ground, then rap down using a double rope device (ATC or similar). There is no way to do this without untying.

As an aside, rope wear is caused by dirt (putting your rope on the ground) and friction against the rock. The abseil rings at the top of routes are very smooth and should not wear your rope out. Abseiling down your rope will wear it out exactly the same amount (a very minuscule amount) as being lowered off.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:58 am 
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Nicolaas

Make sure you back yourself up with a prussik before you unclip yourself from the top anchors. But I don't see you doing much harm on your rope if you are lowered.

cheers
Wayne

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:41 am 
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I must agree with Nic, abseiling off routes is only preferable in that it limits wear on the anchors themselves but it wont save your rope much. Note that method of threading a loop Nic describes, whilst definitely safer, still involves tying in and untying. If performed correctly there is no time that you are 'off the rope', there is still scope for stuff-ups. Clip in anchors eliminate that danger completely.

Cuedos to the Mine crew for finding a clip in solution that doesnt cost an arm and a leg, now what would be nice would be to see some tests (strength / corrosion / wear) run on that set-up so we can be absolutely sure no arms or legs will be lost!

VIVA clip in anchors! Onward to the future!

Some illustrations: The first two are from Fixe (expensive but nice american equipment) and the third is from Raumer who make the glue in bolts ARF use. Note, to the best of my knowledge, none of these are are imported at present mostly due to the high cost and seeming lack of demand. If ppl were to start insisting on these anchors Im sure local retailers would stock them, but there has to be a solid demand for them first. For mechanical bolts there are also several solutions available including a 'budget' version that has a single biner hanging directly off a hanger (-neat!).

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:06 am 
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Sorry to revive a 'dead' thread but I had a gnarly experience finishing off my Philosophy major in 2010 and 2011 was a very busy, crazy postgrad year for me. I'm back on the rock on a weekly basis now and want to discuss this anchor issue again, if you fine gentlemen don't mind.

Concerning abseiling vs Lowering:

I agree the advantages of the one of the other when lowering if a nice big ring is all well and good, but I have not been climbing anywhere with these nice big rings, all I've ever had on the pitches which I've climbed have been a small section of chain bolted to the wall. The links on these chains are so small that you have to squeeze the rope through and it is evident that a large percentage of the sheath is under friction.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:27 am 
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Easy, get some decent chain and replace. Alternatively add maillons to the chains.
You will also need a size 17 spanner.

As you say the thin chain is not good for your rope (if the chain is that small it's probably not very strong either!)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:40 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:55 am 
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I always love FIXE!


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