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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:42 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:10 am
Posts: 33
Location: Somerset West
Real Name: Niels Filter
In a recent post, it came up that it's good to learn to clean a route with Quickdraws rather than with Slings. I've heard this a couple of times and I still lug my trusty slings up every route I climb. So how do you do it?

Do I use the same 2 draws that I use to "clip the chains" with the rope? This might botch things up having a myself and the rope in the same draw?

or

Do I use 2 extra draws? In this case I may just as well lug up my 2 slings.

or

Do I clip one draw to myself and leave one for the rope. That feels a bit scary to be on 1 anchor.. :shock:

Shot!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:30 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:25 pm
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Real Name: Wesley
As long as you are on 2 points at all times I dont think it matters which method you use.

There are many different way to clean anchors, to many to list here, but think through what you are doing and be safe at all times.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:49 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:14 pm
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Real Name: ziggx..
I would also like to see methods for cleaning using draws.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:34 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:55 am
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Location: Pretoria
Real Name: Brian Weaver
So, the simplest way to clean is this:

Get to the chains and clip the rope into one draw and your harness into the other. Then ask for slack to clip your second draw into your harness (or the biner of the draw already clipped into your harness--not approved by all). Then you can pull up slack and tie your safety knot, attaching it to a biner in your harness. Now you are perfectly safe even if the anchor would fail (they won't) because your partner is still belaying you and your fall would be caught by the previous draw.

Alternatively: clip the rope into both chains lower to the previous draw, pull back up and clip it through both lower biners of the draws that are already clipped through the chains leaving the rope in place. Now you are on two points with a little more room to work. Continue with cleaning procedure.

BTW you can carry the draw from the ground and use it to clip in if you're resting on the route so that your partner doesn't have to support your weight while you're trying to recover.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:45 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:23 pm
Posts: 120
Location: Gauteng
Not answering the question but some general things to consider:

  • Personally I prefer the security of a screw gate when my complete weight is on the bolts / chains and there is no backup (cross-loading, gate being forced open on a edge or rounded feature, a small slip / fall at the chains when trying to unweight ropes etc.)
  • I agree with the two points of attachment but do make sure it is on two different bolts / chains (redundancy)
  • I prefer to have the rope 2m from the end tied off on my belay loop on a proper knot on a screwgate carabiner before I untie the end of the rope to thread it. I also keep the rope clipped to a draw on at least one of the chains / bolts and never have a rope that is completely disconnected from the chains / bolts – strictly speaking all of this is a bit overkill. (EDIT: during this process I never ask the belayer to take me off belay - I stay connected with the rope and its runners below me as a backup to a total catastrophe). I have been present where the threading process was botched though inattentiveness and someone fell 5m on a sports route and was only caught because the belayer had a Gri-Gri on the rope (but had no hands on a rope).
  • Remember to never get in a position where you might take a short drop on quickdraws (or slings) – the forces involved in low-stretch material such as dog-bones etc. can (and has) broken 20kN rated gear (perhaps someone can post a link to case studies)


Last edited by DeanVDM on Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:10 am
Posts: 33
Location: Somerset West
Real Name: Niels Filter
Brian, the first way sounds uncomplicated and safe. I'll definitely give that a try, Thanks!

Dean, shot for the pointers.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:20 pm
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Real Name: Jacques Redelinghuys
Everyone say: self equalizing anchor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKFFOS2FXgQ
Watch the whole vid, but you need to only see up to 1min30, and i'm not so sure you need 2 screwgates attached to your harness. One will do, imho.
:afro:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:43 pm 
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Real Name: ziggx..
do you guys think this way is safe?


and what do you think about daisey chaining an extra quickdraw in so that you are not so close to the chains ?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:16 pm 
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Real Name: Justin Lawson
Yes, that method is 100% safe.
Give it some practice. As they mention in the video... check, double check and triple check. The belayer must never take you off belay.
Being close to the chains is fine + safer (better view of what is going on) and easier to work with.

Daisy Chains should not be used for anchoring one self. If you're going to use something longer, use a sling (take note again what DeanVDM says about short drops on low stretch materials).
This video will put you off thinking about using a Daisy Chain for anchoring oneself - https://vimeo.com/14679471

DeanVDM wrote:
Remember to never get in a position where you might take a short drop on quickdraws (or slings) – the forces involved in low-stretch material such as dog-bones etc. can (and has) broken 20kN rated gear (perhaps someone can post a link to case studies)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:48 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
if you clip yourself into the draws at the top, ensure the gates of the biners clipped into your belay loop is facing in opposite directions - makes it near impossible to unclip yourself accidentally. screwgates are overkill imho (unless you're on only one biner).


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:44 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:53 pm
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- Whatever you do, work out the details on the ground before using it at height.
- If you climb at Brian's level, the weight of an extra sling or Purcel can be material. If you climb at my mediocre level, it's likely not to be.
- Some links in response to DvdM's comment, at alpinist, mountainproject, rc.com, dmm, dmm(again) and a useful tech tip from climbing.com together with instruction video.
- at the risk of sounding like your mother, remember to check your belay before coming off your anchor attachments. I'm aware of two deaths in as many years when people neglected this.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:23 pm
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Location: Gauteng
BAbycoat wrote:
at the risk of sounding like your mother, remember to check your belay before coming off your anchor attachments. I'm aware of two deaths in as many years when people neglected this.


BAbycoat makes a very important point: proper communication between you and your buddy is essential. In the end the equipment we climb with is very, very unlikely to break and we need to accept that it is either you/me and your/my belayer that are the weak links in the system. By far the majority of incidents happened due to either making a mistake.

Thanks for sharing the links!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:56 pm 
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Real Name: ziggx..
Justin wrote:
Daisy Chains should not be used for anchoring one self. If you're going to use something longer, use a sling (take note again what DeanVDM says about short drops on low stretch materials).
This video will put you off thinking about using a Daisy Chain for anchoring oneself - https://vimeo.com/14679471



Sorry I used I used incorrect terminology . What I meant by daisy chain is two or more quick draws clipped together to make more space between myself and the chains ?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:33 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:21 pm
Posts: 263
The thing about saying "OFF BELAY" at the top of a sport route - don't do it!

WHY? The real reason is that people learn to say stupid stuff they don't mean - like saying "how are you?" and not listening to the response...

What do I mean? Don't say something you do not mean - Trad climbers know to never say "OFF BELAY" unless they want the belayer to take their hands off the rope, unlock the biner and pull the rope out the belay device - for abseiling, taking up the rope or something like that.

If you are cleaning in the conventional sense then it is better (my opinion) to clip the rope in the top draws, move up, attach your slings and then shout "SAFE". At this point you can request slack for whatever cleaning method you use - be it shortcuts, the method detailed by PETZL for lowering off on a locking carabiner or the conventional pulling of rope through the top draws, overhand knot or figure eight, locking carabiner onto belay loop, untie, feed through chains and tie back in method.

The real point is that the belayer does not go to sleep, chat to the good looking person nearby or let go of the ropes, but rather stands with the rope locked off and paying attention to the climber.

This process is much safer than most sport climbers care to do it, but I won't climb with anyone who will not pay attention the whole time, so this is my gold standard. Even if you use the shortcuts, do not compromise on belayer attention!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:43 am 
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Old Smelly wrote:
The thing about saying "OFF BELAY" at the top of a sport route - don't do it!

My typical response:
"Off Belay"
"Are you sure you're safe?"
"yes"
"Are you sure you want me to take you off belay"
"yes"
-> Remove belay and walk away for a lunch break. Doesn't always win me friends, but wins me climbing partners who share attention to detail (and quirky sense of humour).

As Smelly says, "Off Belay" really means "Off Belay".


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:53 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:11 pm
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Real Name: Lizelle Makovini
Lol, BAbycoat. Good one. It also bothers me that people shout off belay on sport routes.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:59 pm 
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When can we add a "like" function here? I overheard an "off belay" situation yesterday and had to seriously restrain myself from going over there.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:56 pm 
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Echo that! A like button and a "go over there and tell them they are idiots" button...

I normally ask the clueless individual if they like the person they are climbing with... once they have responded in the affirmative I tell them that it's just not true or they would make sure that the clueless one knew what they were doing...

Yes they get offended but once they think about it and decide they prefer living they normally get over themselves and change the way they do things...

This also applies to cool shortcuts that are dangerous BTW... :?

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