DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

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DavidWade
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DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by DavidWade » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:21 am

I have never liked dogs at the crag - dogs walking over my rope, dogs eating my food, etc, but this I can tolerate.
I have disliked dogs at the camp site even more - dogs barking at 5:00 AM in the morning, and again eating my food. But again this I can tolerate.
But this weekend my girlfriend was bitten by someones dog at Boven. Apparently the dog “has never bitten anyone before” - somehow the owner seems to think this makes the situation less of a problem.

To cut a long story short I hate dogs at the crag, I hate dogs at the camp site. Leave your cute little pooch at home please.
And if anyones dog ever bites me or my girlfriend again you will be burying a dead dog.

deSouzaFrank
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by deSouzaFrank » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:57 pm

Unacceptable!!!
Hope your girlfriend ok.

I'm really cheesed off over this. All it takes is a second and someone's life could be changed for ever.

The wife and I are always taking our toddler with to Boven, and on numerous occasions we've been super nervous cause some mutt is up and down the crag with its face in everyone's balls, bags and faces. If what had happened to your girlfriend, happened to my boy, I can promise you I'd be walking out of the crag sporting my new mutt boot after I rammed my foot down it's throat. "He's never bitten anyone before" Really? I would bloody hope not. What a doos.

Don't know why dog owners expect everyone to find their mutts as cute as they do.
Last edited by deSouzaFrank on Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Logic
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by Logic » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:00 pm

Yo David,

I am sorry a dog bit your girlfriend, it is completely unacceptable and regrettable.

However, your threat to, in future, kill any and all dogs that bite either yourself or your girlfriend, is arguably as unacceptable and regrettable.

Remember, violence begets violence.

The guilty party is not the dog but its owner(s).

Killing the dog will not solve anything, in fact it would only exacerbate the situation.

Don't be dof, stay calm and rational.

Woof woof.

rocklooney
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by rocklooney » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:57 pm

I don't have a dog but I don't agree with this. I've been bitten by a dog twice in my life, once when I was two years old (I probably deserved it) and another time fairly recently when an ankle biter took a shot at me. Other than that I've come across thousands of dogs in my half century on this planet and never even had an argument with one. Dogs are part of the landscape and they're really no trouble at all. If a dog gets aggressive then obviously one faces the animal and takes defensive action, but to say that dog owners should leave their dogs at home? ... well that's like saying small children shouldn't travel on commercial airliners or taxi drivers should learn road courtesy. It's impractical because it ain't gonna happen and unreasonable on the majority who have well behaved pets. There is one caveat though. If your dog takes a dump in the immediate vicinity please clean it up so that I don't have to smell, look at or step in it. Other than that I'll suck up your dog's behaviour. They're not that bad.

deSouzaFrank
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by deSouzaFrank » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:11 pm

And if Davids girlfriend was bitten in the face and, let's say worst case scenario lost an eye, would that still be comparable to a noisy child on an airliner or a bad road user?

This particular dog never bit before but yet on this day it did.

I've always been nervous around bigger dogs and honestly I don't think it's a good idea bringing a dog to a crowded place.

But I guess there will always be people who love animals and it is their prerogative to bring their pets along, but then, they should also know that there will also always be those who are not as fond of animals as they are, and that there are also people who would be more than prepared to face the consequences of their actions should your prerogative cause injury to them or their loved ones.

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henkg
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by henkg » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:48 pm

you smokes, music and dogs are most selfish and unwanted at the crag.
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AndrewV
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by AndrewV » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:09 pm

Had a dog bitten my wife or son, guaranteed I'd send it off to any doggy god it wants!!!

Dog owners need to realise not everyone wants their fing pooch around them. Dog pee'd on my fishing gear once I have it a proper klap!! Owner didn't like it so I offered him one too!!!

At the very least they need to be on a leash!!!


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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by mokganjetsi » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:11 am

Well I've had kids shatter my car's rear window with a slingshot at Boven - that was R8000 and two trips to Nelspruit. I don't think kids should be banned though.
I agree fully that what happened to Dave's girlfriend is completely unacceptable and that the responsibility lies in its entirety with the owner. If your dog is not properly trained, socialized & supervised please leave it at home. Allowing pets at campsites enables dog owners to go away for weekends; make sure your mutt is legit or you will screw it up for everybody else.

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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by Guardian » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:12 am

I feel those two independent border collies at Boven are the best dogs in the world though. I would take them (actually they decide to walk with themselves) instead of a baby any day.
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ColinCrab
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by ColinCrab » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:46 am

Hi David

I have posted this after a dog bit me 3 times at Boven. However it seems to fall on deaf ears.... until a nasty accident/incident will find the owner in hot water one day.


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lee123
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by lee123 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:15 am

The owners should not leave their dogs to roam unattended.
The dogs are probably guarding their owner's property, if you step by their bags and ropes etc the dogs' guarding instincts kick in.
Often warnings are given through their body language assuming they don't growl outright, if you miss these signs or ignore them and keep walking towards the owners or their possessions you will risk getting bitten.

On the other hand, many of us and have been mugged/attacked by people who are the real problem, I would much rather be in a place crawling with dogs as they will keep criminals away, and take the 1 in a very large number chance of being bitten, versus having people swarming everywhere and having in a 1 in a very small number chance of having my stuff stolen or being mugged etc.

Finally you make it clear you don't like dogs, dogs will sense your hostility towards them and take action.
Dogs are also amazing judges of character, if someone constantly has a problem with dogs, maybe they are actually the problem. Don't escalate with dogs, rather just back off and walk far around them, that is what they want (you to keep away from their owner), if you kick at them you have now elevated yourself from a possible threat to a definite threat, and with dogs like boerbulls, pitbulls, rottweilers, german sheperds, staffies etc. you will be on the receiving end, despite your tough talk, Youtube having plenty of examples of people who have struck out at dogs and getting mauled in return.

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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by deSouzaFrank » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:56 am

Are you joking lee123? I should walk far around the dog and analyze its body language? Next time I light up a cigarette, I won't consider that maybe the people around me, wouldn't like it? No sir, they should rather watch my body language and the general wind direction, then walk around me and in such a manner that the wind doesn't carry my smoke in their direction. Secondly YouTube what a 9mm piece of lead at high velocity does to flesh. I won't be on no receiving end of a dog that has decided it's his right to protect its owner because my child didn't walk around it before first assessing its mood.
Last edited by deSouzaFrank on Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ColinCrab
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by ColinCrab » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:17 pm

rather just back off and walk far around them, that is what they want
I echo Franks amazement ! "Seriously Lee" ? The crags generally have limited space at the base that needs to be divided up between climbers, be-layers, people to pass through, gear and the necessary space for the climber to have a safe, uninterrupted belay.

Dogs have no place in that space. Full stop. The only thing backing off is the dog. I think my previous article on the subject covered it adequately. However we had an incident this weekend in Boven where a dog howled loudly non-stop for hours at the base of the crag which hacked everyone off that was there. Most unpleasant for all. Then on the other side of the coin we had other dogs there that were perfectly well behaved.

lee123
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by lee123 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:23 pm

Well I personally don't just approach a strange dog, as I am always aware that I risk getting bitten/ the dog might not be friendly.
Smokers don't normally consider anyone else full stop, but point noted. The owners should not leave their dogs to their own devices in crowded places to begin with.

lee123
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by lee123 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:25 pm

I agree fully that a crowded crag is a really bad place to bring a dog, I wouldn't bring my dog to one.

PeterHS
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by PeterHS » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:48 pm

It takes only one dog to bite or distract a belayer at a crucial moment ..... P

deSouzaFrank
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by deSouzaFrank » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:26 pm

Its cool if you have a close connection with your dog, but you should then maybe, concider crags with very few, if not any people around. Not at a place like the wonderland crags at Boven.

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danglingdingle
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by danglingdingle » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:27 pm

Wow such hostility toward dogs.

Is size and breed a factor in this discussion?

I only ask because i bring two small rats to the crag when I can.

@deSouzaFrank if you tried to put a 9mm piece of lead in one of these you'd have to be a very good shot they are only about 300mm long and very close to the ground.
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deSouzaFrank
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by deSouzaFrank » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:36 pm

Well danglingdingle like I said before, you might find them just too cute, but here's the shocker I don't. If one of them had to bite my son (whom I find much cuter) in the face I'm pretty sure a bootlift would do the job) no need to go wasting lead.

But on a real note it's still your prerogative to bring them along, and I can't tell you any different. I'm also pretty sure no one will actually kill any dog. But just as I take my son to less frequented crags, as I know not everyone finds my son as cute as I do, you should also consider this.

AndrewV
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by AndrewV » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:39 pm

deSouzaFrank, any dog bites my kids or wife, I promise you it's going to doggy heaven!!! Won't even think twice!!! Your right to own a dog in no way permits you to intentionally or not, place my family in harms way!!

MClay
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by MClay » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:43 pm

As an oddity (seemingly) to this forum - I love kids and dogs at the crag - I'll offer my two cents. A lot of the problem I see at Boven is lack of common courtesy to any party that doesn't seem to fit in with your particular vibe. Kid crowd. Dog Crowd. Non-kid. Non-dog. Crusher. Non-crusher. Maybe if people just had a polite conversation about what offends them (potentially) before waiting until after the offense has become obscene/violent, we wouldn't have to sort it out online. :thumleft:

I took our dogs to Boven a few years ago when they were puppies. Pretty much everyone we saw was ooo-ing and awe-ing over them. That's never happened with my kids :lol: But, as last I checked, even the best trained crag dog hasn't redpointed Milou. And my kids, even on their bad days, at least give climbing a go and try to keep the psyche high!

Beyond that we've had the music-blaring, F-bomb dropping crowd (Does clipping the 4th draw of Snakeskin Safari Suit after hanging on the rope for 10 minutes really merit a "F@#k, ja boet!"???) openly make rude comments about our kids just as we walked past their scene. As if to warn us off, or to use a canine metaphor, mark their territory. So sometimes it's better just to hit the less traveled crags...Boven's a pretty big place after all. :hapban

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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by Warren G » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:21 am

For me I cannot understand how anyone can justify bringing a dog to a crag: its very little exercise for the animal, the owners are distracted by other activities and there are other people around. We hear people defending bringing their special dog to the crag, but never explain why they do.

Fortunately I haven't shared a crag with a dog in years, perhaps thats because I haven't been to Boven in years either, but I certainly remember that camp site being dominated by dogs, and I am amazed that more incidents like the one above haven't sparked more outrage: clearly we have to wait for something even more serious to happen before we (as a community) listen to the concerns of fellow climbers. In the mean while please continue to impose your animals on the friendly people at the crag. Funny how they are tolerant to you imposing fluffy, but what would actually happen if they asked you too take your dog somewhere else?
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ShaolinWood
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by ShaolinWood » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:39 am

Hi, I had a few incidents with dogs as well (I actually posted about it years ago)

On 2 occasions dogs (not on leashes) actually went for one of my kids. This happened at Red Hill area and Coppermine.
On both of those incidents I had to jump in front and offer a very threatening boot and scream at the dogs.

Both times the owners responded that "No they will never hurt a fly" and "It just got a fright"!

Yea right!! Everyone thinks their dog will never hurt a fly! But they do. Often these people don't have kids and dogs react very strangely when they encounter kids! That's not on.

I've also run into dogs while trail running. You come around a corner and suddenly there's this massive flipping dog in front of you. Obviously it gets startled then starts barking madly at me. This happened so much on the peninsula.

If you want to take your dog to public spaces then it should be on a leash. And pick up the dog crap as well please.
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mokganjetsi
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by mokganjetsi » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:15 am

dogs are social, territorial and protective - so the upside is companionship & protection (from humans, snakes, baboons etc.) i think the protection factor has a lot of merit in vast / quiet areas. i often see single ladies walk around deer park on TM with 2 or 3 dogs milling around; i just don't think there's any other way for them to be & feel safe. the downside is that these dogs does not always know your intentions and might charge or snap - i've had that happen a few times and in no uncertain terms let the owners understand that it is their duty to train their dogs properly. at the same time, when i go flying around a corner on the hulk and i see dogs, i slow down and give them space - just common courtesy to give room for people & their pets.

crag dynamics are a bit different and i think unless well behaved & trained your dog should just stay home. we can go on about "until something bad happens", but at the same time you have to consider how many bad things have been prevented by having dogs around.

Warren G
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by Warren G » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:26 am

mokganjetsi wrote:but at the same time you have to consider how many bad things have been prevented by having dogs around.
Thanks, this poses a great question: has anyone had an incident prevented by having a dog at the crag?
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mokganjetsi
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by mokganjetsi » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:42 am

dunno about any crag-specific stories, but google "dog saves child from **insert threat** and you'll find heaps. then there's of course all the would-be situations that never came to pass because dogs are a deterrent as well as protection. saw an old lady with her 3 Alsatians walking around the remote stretch between deer park & rhodes memorial - can only guess how many would-be attackers have passed her by over the years.

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BruceT
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by BruceT » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:52 am

I am seriously dilly about my dog (mainly because he allows me to sleep at night instead of stressing about every little noise and gets me off my butt daily). I took him to Monteseel once, mainly for protection which is actually unnecessary there.
He barked at the local crag dog and was curious about the other climbers, I ended up tying him up at the base of each climb. Everyone said "No, no, its fine", etc. BUT to me, it wasn't fine.
I have never and will never take him to a crag again - as has been said here, the base of a crag is no place for a dog (those two funny brown sausage things don't count), unless you can guarantee you will be alone. Rather take them for a walk/run/swim separately.
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Old Smelly
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by Old Smelly » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:02 pm

There is a context in the case of Boven.

The "old" Restaurant crags are a good place to take a dog for protection - that is indisputable! They are probably the best protection you can have while you are focused on climbing - they know when someone is approaching and are a better deterrent then a weapon tucked away in your bag that you will have no time to get to. Gustav's dogs have been spectacular as a means of being able to go climb at "high risk" crags.

However - there are dogs there at the old campsite, so one needs to get past them. Something you need to think about.

Quite frankly we all get aggro if we think a dog is threatening us or our loved ones/ friends, even climbing partners. As has been stated the onus is fully on the dog owner to assess whether the dog is able to fit into the social environment of a crag and decide whether it is wise to take their dog into a place that can be crowded, noisy etc. That is all logical - so ranting against bad owners is worthwhile but hating on the dogs is not. Right?!

So maybe the idea is that if you don't like self regulation then someone will impose a ban on where dogs are acceptable or not. Who decides? the landowner? or do we wait for something bad to happen? Thus the need for people who like taking their dogs with them to be aware that not everyone thinks alike and make everyone's encounters with their dogs good ones.

I think we are all on the same page - dog owners need to THINK about whether their dog is the the right dog to be at the crag - trained, non aggressive etc. That is all that is required!

Oh and smokers are in no way comparable to dogs - they are fully responsible for their habit and how they decide to behave is their responsibility. Of course in that case smoking in a public place is actually against the law of the country, so not quite as debatable.
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Marshall1
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Re: DOGS AT THE CRAG AND CAMP SITE

Post by Marshall1 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:14 pm

The worst is when a dog owner doesn't bring enough water to the crag, but just appropriates your drinking water, so you land up cutting the day short due to lack of water.

I have 7 dogs, mostly sausages (much cuter than danglingdingle's mutties :hapban ). We would never take them to a crag. Too scared they will be munched by puffadders or eagles.

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