The best climbs list

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Keith
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The best climbs list

Post by Keith » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:33 am

For those of you who love lists---and who doesn't?... Here is a list of the best climbs in South Africa. "Best", of course, means highest posterior probability of being recommended if logged on 8a.nu. A beta distribution with alpha = 4, beta = 54 has been used as a prior. These are the values that most climbers use as they closely match typical observed global recommendation rates. Results are, however, insensitive to all but the most inappropriate of priors (e.g. equal weighting).

1. "Witness the Sickness" 8A (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 21.5%; recommended in 26.5% of 165 cases
2. "Black Shadow" 8A+ (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 20.8%; recommended in 29.0% of 96 cases
3. "Cedar Spine" 7C (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 20.2%; recommended in 25.8% of 140 cases
4. "The Rhino" 7B+ (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 20.1%; recommended in 22.3% of 325 cases
5. "Shosholoza" 8A+ (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 19.7%; recommended in 30.0% of 74 cases
6. "Freak On" 7a (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 19.6%; recommended in 26.0% of 121 cases
7. "Orange Heart" 6C (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 19.2%; recommended in 23.0% of 181 cases
8. "Sex Etiquette" 6C (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 18.1%; recommended in 22.0% of 157 cases
9. "Lotter's Desire" 7b+ (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 18.1%; recommended in 24.5% of 102 cases
10. "Endless Summer" 6c (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 18.1%; recommended in 36.0% of 36 cases
11. "Pinotage" 7C+ (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 17.9%; recommended in 21.4% of 182 cases
12. "Mooiste Meisie" 8B (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 17.7%; recommended in 34.0% of 38 cases
13. "Snapdragon" 7c+ (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 17.6%; recommended in 26.0% of 78 cases
14. "Monster" 7c+ (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 17.4%; recommended in 26.0% of 74 cases
15. "Splash of Red" 7C+ (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 16.5%; recommended in 33.0% of 33 cases
16. "The Church of Frederico" 6c+ (sport), Montagu (prob recommend = 15.8%; recommended in 25.4% of 56 cases
17. "The Neuromancer" 6c+ (sport), Montagu (prob recommend = 15.2%; recommended in 26.8% of 41 cases
18. "To Siemay" 6C+ (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 14.9%; recommended in 20.0% of 83 cases
19. "Skinny Legs and All" 7b+ (sport), Oudtshoorn (prob recommend = 14.5%; recommended in 55.0% of 11 cases
20. "The Amphitheatre" 8A+ (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 14.3%; recommended in 19.8% of 82 cases
21. "Caroline" 7C (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 14.2%; recommended in 15.9% of 266 cases
22. "Girl on Our Mind" 6C (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 14.2%; recommended in 15.6% of 260 cases
23. "Paws" 7b (sport), Oudtshoorn (prob recommend = 14.1%; recommended in 17.7% of 112 cases
24. "The Vice" 8B (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 14.0%; recommended in 21.0% of 63 cases
25. "As the World Disappears" 7b (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 13.9%; recommended in 33.0% of 21 cases
26. "Up the Spout" 6A (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 13.7%; recommended in 16.0% of 147 cases
27. "Springbok" 7B (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 13.6%; recommended in 15.6% of 200 cases
28. "Hypertension" 8a (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 13.4%; recommended in 29.0% of 24 cases
29. "Hole in One" 7C+ (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 13.4%; recommended in 16.0% of 159 cases
30. "Up for Grabs" 8a (sport), Oudtshoorn (prob recommend = 13.3%; recommended in 25.0% of 32 cases
31. "Sid Vicious" 7b (sport), Oudtshoorn (prob recommend = 13.2%; recommended in 18.3% of 78 cases
32. "The Beast" 8a+ (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 13.2%; recommended in 24.0% of 33 cases
33. "Firestarter!" 7c+ (sport), Montagu (prob recommend = 13.0%; recommended in 24.0% of 34 cases
34. "Shift Horizons" 7B+ (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 13.0%; recommended in 20.0% of 50 cases
35. "Mazawattee" 8c+ (sport), Montagu (prob recommend = 12.9%; recommended in 100.0% of 4 cases
36. "Out of Balance" 8A (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 12.9%; recommended in 16.0% of 105 cases
37. "Gliding Through Waves Like Dolphins" 8A (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 12.7%; recommended in 17.0% of 84 cases
38. "The Activist" 8a (sport), Montagu (prob recommend = 12.7%; recommended in 29.0% of 21 cases
39. "Born Into Struggle" 7C (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 12.5%; recommended in 13.7% of 269 cases
40. "Jack of All Trades" 8a (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 12.5%; recommended in 20.0% of 46 cases
41. "Golden Virginia" 8A (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 12.4%; recommended in 16.0% of 103 cases
42. "Cool Like That" 7c+ (sport), Montagu (prob recommend = 12.4%; recommended in 23.0% of 31 cases
43. "Minki" 7B (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 12.3%; recommended in 13.0% of 382 cases
44. "Sickle Moon" 6c (sport), The Mine (prob recommend = 12.2%; recommended in 16.0% of 89 cases
45. "Neanderthal Rex" 7b+ (sport), Montagu (prob recommend = 12.1%; recommended in 20.0% of 41 cases
46. "Cactus Palace" 6c+ (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 12.1%; recommended in 20.0% of 41 cases
47. "Superfly" 6c (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 12.1%; recommended in 21.2% of 33 cases
48. "Daze of Thunder" 7c (sport), Montagu (prob recommend = 12.1%; recommended in 21.0% of 33 cases
49. "Cattle Rustler" 6a+ (sport), Rocklands (prob recommend = 12.0%; recommended in 29.6% of 17 cases
50. "*Macho King" 7C+ (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 11.8%; recommended in 15.0% of 94 cases

This is the formula used: Probability equals prior times likelihood ratio

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:42 am

Cool list but subject to serious bias towards the more difficult end of the grading scale, since few people are on 8a to log easy ascents even if they are awesome.

For instance, Sands of Time, Another Day in Paradise, Gospel Express are not featured at all since they won't bump up your score by much despite being 5* classics that everyone who climbs should climb.
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Justin
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Justin » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:52 am

Cool list Keith. Be interesting to see routes under 7a that are highly recommended.
See also:
- Trad Hit List
- Sport Hit List
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Keith
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Keith » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:19 pm

@Justin: Here's a list for < 7a

1. "Orange Heart" 6C (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 19.2%; recommended in 23.0% of 181 cases
2. "Sex Etiquette" 6C (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 18.1%; recommended in 22.0% of 157 cases
3. "Endless Summer" 6c (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 18.1%; recommended in 36.0% of 36 cases
4. "The Church of Frederico" 6c+ (sport), Montagu (prob recommend = 15.8%; recommended in 25.4% of 56 cases
5. "The Neuromancer" 6c+ (sport), Montagu (prob recommend = 15.2%; recommended in 26.8% of 41 cases
6. "To Siemay" 6C+ (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 14.9%; recommended in 20.0% of 83 cases
7. "Girl on Our Mind" 6C (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 14.2%; recommended in 15.6% of 260 cases
8. "Up the Spout" 6A (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 13.7%; recommended in 16.0% of 147 cases
9. "Sickle Moon" 6c (sport), The Mine (prob recommend = 12.2%; recommended in 16.0% of 89 cases
10. "Cactus Palace" 6c+ (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 12.1%; recommended in 20.0% of 41 cases
11. "Superfly" 6c (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 12.1%; recommended in 21.2% of 33 cases
12. "Cattle Rustler" 6a+ (sport), Rocklands (prob recommend = 12.0%; recommended in 29.6% of 17 cases
13. "Jono Gordon's Route" 6c (sport), Silvermine (prob recommend = 11.6%; recommended in 18.7% of 37 cases
14. "The Arête/ First Impressions" 6b (sport), Rocklands (prob recommend = 11.5%; recommended in 24.7% of 20 cases
15. "Demi Lune" 6C (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 11.5%; recommended in 14.0% of 99 cases
16. "*The Roof Is on Fire" 6C (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 11.4%; recommended in 12.5% of 239 cases
17. "Atomic Aardvark" 6c+ (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 11.4%; recommended in 17.0% of 47 cases
18. "Latin Lessons" 6b+ (sport), Montagu (prob recommend = 11.4%; recommended in 33.0% of 12 cases
19. "Creaking Heights" 6C (boulder), Rocklands (prob recommend = 11.2%; recommended in 12.9% of 157 cases
20. "Spitfire" 6c+ (sport), Silvermine (prob recommend = 11.1%; recommended in 21.7% of 23 cases
21. "Precision Feather" 6b (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 11.0%; recommended in 13.4% of 106 cases
22. "In Your Face" 6c (sport), Silvermine (prob recommend = 11.0%; recommended in 27.1% of 15 cases
23. "Brollocks" 6a+ (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 10.6%; recommended in 15.0% of 55 cases
24. "Rude Bushman" 6c+ (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 10.5%; recommended in 11.6% of 162 cases
25. "The Day of the Triffids" 6a+ (sport), Boven (prob recommend = 10.4%; recommended in 33.0% of 9 cases

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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Guardian » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:07 pm

Love it that both "The Day of the Triffids" and "Brollocks" made the list. Placed on top of the list then?
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Justin
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Justin » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:06 pm

Keith wrote:@Justin: Here's a list for < 7a
Awesome thanks.
Now may I request a list for under 6b?

Are you able to filter Trad, Boulder, Sport?
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Forket
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Forket » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:21 am

Nic Le Maitre wrote:Cool list but subject to serious bias towards the more difficult end of the grading scale, since few people are on 8a to log easy ascents even if they are awesome.
I'm sure he said climbs, not hikes in his opening post. Very few hikers log their hikes because they so insignificant in a rock climbing sense, even when the majority of the community we find ourselves in are hikers. This post is evidence that the majority of the community have come to this realization.

People that log on 8a.nu are striving for something, whether it be remembering what they've done or pushing to see what they can achieve. This reflects directly what people on the rock are doing as some people are just out there to have a good time (hikers) while others find the most challenging ways up a cliff a good time (climbers). There is a clear difference.

The original list is a beautiful list of climbs, even the list of hikes, though the two should always be seen as not being the same thing!

Good job Keith

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Forket
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Forket » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:37 am

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Warren G
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Warren G » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:28 pm

Thanks for putting the effort into this Keith. As a person not on 8a.nu it is interesting to see what more competitive people think are our best routes, however its a shame that no trad routes made either list above.

I can't help but notice so many routes from Rocklands: about half the top list. I wonder if this list isn't swayed by tourist sends, rather than what is genuinely the best routes we have to offer the world?
Sandbagging is a dirty game

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Forket
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Forket » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:27 am

Agreed Warren, comes down to marketing of our crags. Some crags are well marketed while the gems are hidden from the world, but is this a problem or a blessing. And should it be kept this way or have more traffic in these pristine havens?

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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Logic » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:13 pm

Ebert,

I would say, yes, it is a blessing, and, yes, it should be kept "hidden" as far and as long as possible.

Ghaznavid
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Ghaznavid » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:04 am

Interesting to see no routes in KZN making the list. Aren't Umgeni and Shongweni supposed to be some of SA's best climbing spots?

@Troll: just because something is a hike, doesn't make it easy. Nothing technical about doing a day hike up Mafadi (SA's highest point, not even light scrambling required), but that doesn't make it easy. Strictly speaking, rock climbing at a crag (as opposed to with the intent of getting to the top of a mountain) is not mountaineering. Walking up a mountain, however, is. Different sports...
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by mokganjetsi » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:00 pm

It's a really cool analysis and thanks form making the effort Keith!

My critique of the list is that it is overly biased towards climbs that have been rated many times; and hence boulders will also get precedence over sport routes and trad lines coming in third. Its also a mentality thing: generally I find that traddies are less concerned about rating routes and the publicity of their endeavors. As an example, all 4 Mazawattee's ascensonists will recommend the route (100%) yet it comes in only at nr 35, behind routes with recommendation ratios as low as 15,6%. From a statistical analysis perspective you must of course give higher weighting to the greater number of observations, but I do believe "the right rating" is achieved at far lower numbers than this method.

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Forket
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Forket » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:02 pm

Ghaznavid wrote:Interesting to see no routes in KZN making the list. Aren't Umgeni and Shongweni supposed to be some of SA's best climbing spots?

@Troll: just because something is a hike, doesn't make it easy. Nothing technical about doing a day hike up Mafadi (SA's highest point, not even light scrambling required), but that doesn't make it easy. Strictly speaking, rock climbing at a crag (as opposed to with the intent of getting to the top of a mountain) is not mountaineering. Walking up a mountain, however, is. Different sports...
Umgeni and Shongweni aren't frequently traveled spots by a wide variety of people. The routes on the list are at crags that are visited very frequently by locals and tourists, including strong climbers of both variants.

I never said hiking is easy in my post. I don't find hiking easy, physically or mentally. Read before you react please:) I agree that they different sports. That's the point of my post, though I also acknowledge that hiking, mountaineering and climbing can co-exist (but that just complicates the matter beyond what I was saying and what the topic is about).

Peace
ET

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:19 pm

Forket wrote:
Nic Le Maitre wrote:Cool list but subject to serious bias towards the more difficult end of the grading scale, since few people are on 8a to log easy ascents even if they are awesome.
I'm sure he said climbs, not hikes in his opening post. Very few hikers log their hikes because they so insignificant in a rock climbing sense, even when the majority of the community we find ourselves in are hikers. This post is evidence that the majority of the community have come to this realization.

People that log on 8a.nu are striving for something, whether it be remembering what they've done or pushing to see what they can achieve. This reflects directly what people on the rock are doing as some people are just out there to have a good time (hikers) while others find the most challenging ways up a cliff a good time (climbers). There is a clear difference.

The original list is a beautiful list of climbs, even the list of hikes, though the two should always be seen as not being the same thing!

Good job Keith
Depends on how you define "Best" I guess. Personally I think aesthetics count for more than grades. Beautiful lines do not necessarily equal hard climbs and vise versa. If I was making a list of "best climbs in SA" to give to visiting climbers it'd have a wide grade range to try to give the best overall representation of SA routes rather than just telling them to go climb the hardest ones.
Happy climbing
Nic

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Forket
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Forket » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:49 pm

Nic Le Maitre wrote:
Good job Keith

Depends on how you define "Best" I guess. Personally I think aesthetics count for more than grades. Beautiful lines do not necessarily equal hard climbs and vise versa. If I was making a list of "best climbs in SA" to give to visiting climbers it'd have a wide grade range to try to give the best overall representation of SA routes rather than just telling them to go climb the hardest ones.
For those of you who love lists---and who doesn't?... Here is a list of the best climbs in South Africa. "Best", of course, means highest posterior probability of being recommended if logged on 8a.nu. A beta distribution with alpha = 4, beta = 54 has been used as a prior. These are the values that most climbers use as they closely match typical observed global recommendation rates. Results are, however, insensitive to all but the most inappropriate of priors (e.g. equal weighting).[/quote]


As per original statement, best according to 8a.nu user base. This means people's opinions regardless of grade (taking aesthetics etc etc etc into account). It's consensus. And statistically analysed. You'll also find that most people recommending routes on that list don't recommend them because of grade, though harder grades makes for better climbing in my experience. It's about flow etc etc etc all taken into account by the users.

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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Forket » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:52 pm

To add to that Nic, the top 10 routes apart from 2 maybe are aesthetically awesome

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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Keith » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:31 pm

Of course, this is only *a* list not really *the* list. If you have more information than that which I have scraped from 8a.nu then you might well come up with a better list. If something doesn't rank high on the list it may be because of scant data rather than poor route quality.

I use this method when I have a short visit to a faraway place that I know little about. It gives me a list of some good climbs that I might consider. For fun, I applied it to SA climbs.

I foolishly omitted some of South Africa's top crags. Here's the new list with those included. Routes only, no boulders.

1. "Freak On" 7a, Boven (prob recommend = 19.6%; recommended in 26.0% of 121 cases
2. "Lotter's Desire" 7b+, Boven (prob recommend = 18.1%; recommended in 24.5% of 102 cases
3. "Endless Summer" 6c, Boven (prob recommend = 18.1%; recommended in 36.0% of 36 cases
4. "Snapdragon" 7c+, Boven (prob recommend = 17.6%; recommended in 26.0% of 78 cases
5. "Monster" 7c+, Boven (prob recommend = 17.4%; recommended in 26.0% of 74 cases
6. "The Church of Frederico" 6c+, Montagu (prob recommend = 15.8%; recommended in 25.0% of 56 cases
7. "The Neuromancer" 6c+, Montagu (prob recommend = 15.2%; recommended in 26.8% of 41 cases
8. "Stormwatch" 8b, Fernkloof (prob recommend = 15.1%; recommended in 46.7% of 15 cases
9. "Jacob's Ladder" 5b, Table Mountain (prob recommend = 14.7%; recommended in 27.0% of 37 cases
10. "Skinny Legs and All" 7b+, Oudtshoorn (prob recommend = 14.5%; recommended in 55.0% of 11 cases
11. "Paws" 7b, Oudtshoorn (prob recommend = 14.1%; recommended in 17.9% of 112 cases
12. "As the World Disappears" 7b, Boven (prob recommend = 13.9%; recommended in 33.0% of 21 cases
13. "Hypertension" 8a, Boven (prob recommend = 13.4%; recommended in 29.0% of 24 cases
14. "Up for Grabs" 8a, Oudtshoorn (prob recommend = 13.3%; recommended in 25.0% of 32 cases
15. "Sid Vicious" 7b, Oudtshoorn (prob recommend = 13.2%; recommended in 17.9% of 78 cases
16. "The Beast" 8a+, Boven (prob recommend = 13.2%; recommended in 24.0% of 33 cases
17. "Firestarter!" 7c+, Montagu (prob recommend = 13.0%; recommended in 24.0% of 34 cases
18. "Mazawattee" 8c+, Montagu (prob recommend = 12.9%; recommended in 100.0% of 4 cases
19. "The Activist" 8a, Montagu (prob recommend = 12.7%; recommended in 29.0% of 21 cases
20. "War on Gaza" 7a, Umgeni Valley (prob recommend = 12.5%; recommended in 19.6% of 46 cases
21. "Jack of All Trades" 8a, Boven (prob recommend = 12.5%; recommended in 20.0% of 46 cases
22. "Agnes the Skinhead" 7b, Umgeni Valley (prob recommend = 12.4%; recommended in 23.0% of 31 cases
23. "Cool Like That" 7c+, Montagu (prob recommend = 12.4%; recommended in 23.0% of 31 cases
24. "Paragon" 8a, Wave Cave (prob recommend = 12.3%; recommended in 26.1% of 23 cases
25. "Sickle Moon" 6c, The Mine (prob recommend = 12.2%; recommended in 15.7% of 89 cases
26. "Neanderthal Rex" 7b+, Montagu (prob recommend = 12.1%; recommended in 20.0% of 41 cases
27. "Cactus Palace" 6c+, Boven (prob recommend = 12.1%; recommended in 20.0% of 41 cases
28. "Superfly" 6c, Boven (prob recommend = 12.1%; recommended in 21.2% of 33 cases
29. "Daze of Thunder" 7c, Montagu (prob recommend = 12.1%; recommended in 21.0% of 33 cases
30. "Cattle Rustler" 6a+, Rocklands (prob recommend = 12.0%; recommended in 29.4% of 17 cases
31. "Call of Duty" 7b+, WigWam (prob recommend = 11.8%; recommended in 40.0% of 10 cases
32. "Little Red Riding Hood" 7a, Boven (prob recommend = 11.6%; recommended in 16.7% of 54 cases
33. "Barricade" 8b, Wave Cave (prob recommend = 11.6%; recommended in 36.0% of 11 cases
34. "Jono Gordon's Route" 6c, Silvermine (prob recommend = 11.6%; recommended in 18.9% of 37 cases
35. "The Arête/ First Impressions" 6b, Rocklands (prob recommend = 11.5%; recommended in 25.0% of 20 cases
36. "Atomic Aardvark" 6c+, Boven (prob recommend = 11.4%; recommended in 17.0% of 47 cases
37. "Wayfarer" 7b, Umgeni Valley (prob recommend = 11.4%; recommended in 33.0% of 12 cases
38. "Latin Lessons" 6b+, Montagu (prob recommend = 11.4%; recommended in 33.0% of 12 cases
39. "Mercury" 7b, Silvermine (prob recommend = 11.4%; recommended in 17.0% of 47 cases
40. "Awkward Turtle" 7a+, Umgeni Valley (prob recommend = 11.4%; recommended in 20.0% of 30 cases
41. "Another Lonely Day" 7a+, Montagu (prob recommend = 11.3%; recommended in 75.0% of 4 cases
42. "Double Jeopardy" 8a, Table Mountain (prob recommend = 11.1%; recommended in 60.0% of 5 cases
43. "Spitfire" 6c+, Silvermine (prob recommend = 11.1%; recommended in 21.7% of 23 cases
44. "Jambo" 7a, Boven (prob recommend = 11.1%; recommended in 16.0% of 50 cases
45. "Precision Feather" 6b, Boven (prob recommend = 11.0%; recommended in 13.2% of 106 cases
46. "In Your Face" 6c, Silvermine (prob recommend = 11.0%; recommended in 26.7% of 15 cases
47. "Faberge" 7c, Fernkloof (prob recommend = 10.9%; recommended in 14.0% of 79 cases
48. "Fire Fly" 6c+, Bronkies (prob recommend = 10.7%; recommended in 15.6% of 45 cases
49. "Cyberpunk" 7a, Montagu (prob recommend = 10.6%; recommended in 14.5% of 55 cases
50. "Brollocks" 6a+, Boven (prob recommend = 10.6%; recommended in 15.0% of 55 cases

@Justin. Here's a list for <6b. I've just listed ten since there isn't much data:

1. "Jacob's Ladder" 5b, Table Mountain (prob recommend = 14.7%; recommended in 27.0% of 37 cases
2. "Cattle Rustler" 6a+, Rocklands (prob recommend = 12.0%; recommended in 29.4% of 17 cases
3. "Brollocks" 6a+, Boven (prob recommend = 10.6%; recommended in 15.0% of 55 cases
4. "Bombay Duck" 6a, Table Mountain (prob recommend = 10.5%; recommended in 22.2% of 18 cases
5. "The Day of the Triffids" 6a+, Boven (prob recommend = 10.4%; recommended in 33.0% of 9 cases
6. "Long Bolt To Freedom" 5b, Swinburne (prob recommend = 10.1%; recommended in 19.0% of 21 cases
7. "Five Lives Left" 6a+, Boven (prob recommend = 10.0%; recommended in 14.3% of 42 cases
8. "TSSPMQ" 5b, Fernkloof (prob recommend = 9.7%; recommended in 50.0% of 4 cases
9. "Maidens Prayer" 5b, Tafelberg (prob recommend = 9.5%; recommended in 40.0% of 5 cases
10. "Atlantic Crag" 6a+, Table Mountain (prob recommend = 9.4%; recommended in 33.3% of 6 cases

I've stripped out boulders; I don't know if there is an easy way to separate trad from sport.

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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:31 am

Firstly thanks Keith for all the data crunching, makes for interesting reading.

@Forket: I'm well aware of the proviso given by Keith in his first post, I'm just pointing out that there are serious flaws in using a purely data driven approach to creating a "best climbs" list, just as there would be to a purely experience based list as well. There must be a middle ground there somewhere as well (though how to define it is tricky!).

I'm glad to see that Jacob's Ladder has made it onto the (extended) list because despite it having a grade that you would classify as "hiking", it is magnificent. To (mis)quote Jeremy Samson: "Being in Cape Town and not climbing Jacob's Ladder, would be like being a midget with knife throwing skills and not joining the circus".
Happy climbing
Nic

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Re: The best climbs list

Post by mokganjetsi » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:44 pm

since i have time on my hands i dotted down the 20 best climbs i have done; ranked #1 at the top - all within my hiking grade (23) and concentrated in the western cape. i also have little doubt that some of the classic big lines in my hopeful future will bump some routes of the list - thinking ichtyosaurus, celestial journey; burnout and some of the lines at yellowwood. was fun to compile the list! would love to see some of the more experienced climbers' lists......

White Men Can't Jump - 23; (Shhhh)
Double Direct - 19 (trad); TM
Jacob's Ladder - 16 (trad); TM
Comes a Time - 20 (trad); Tafelberg
Endless Summer - 22; Boven
Gospel Express - 17; Montagu
Moolah Banda - 22; (Shhh)
Lip Service - 22; Sanddrif
Brolloks - 19; Boven
Dynamite P1 - 19 (trad); TM
Atlantic Crag Direct - 20 (trad); TM
Sterling Silver - 21; Silvermine
Neuromancer - 23; Montagu
Me or My Girl - 21; Montagu
De Bruyn Damage - 19 (trad); Lion's Head
Wow Wow Pedal - 20; Sanddrif
Cross Breed - 22; Montagu
Knobless Robot - 18 (trad); Wolfberg
Scorched Earth - 23; Hellfire
Sands of Time - 18; Paarl Rock

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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Guardian » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:58 am

lol at the relative, arbitrary and contradicting classification of climbing based on some grade threshold.
Climber=Striving for something / find a challenging way up a cliff / having a good time / logs on 8a.nu / above 24 ?
Hiker=Striving for having a good time / mentally or physically challenging / having a good time / sometimes logs on 8a.nu / below 24 ?
Look, its a route up a near-vertical cliff logged in a climbing route guide and even on 8a.nu. It's f'ing climbing.

For the purpose of not being condescending can we go with wikipedia:
-Climbing is the activity of using one's hands, feet, or any other part of the body to ascend a steep object. It is done recreationally, competitively, in trades that rely on it, and in emergency rescue and military operations. It is done indoors and out, on natural and manmade structures.

-Hiking/backpacking/trekking is the preferred term for a long, multi-day vigorous walks, usually on trails (footpaths), involving camping, in the countryside / mountainous regions.

Not even that hard.
Great thanks.
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Ghaznavid » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:07 pm

Guardian wrote:Climbing is the activity of using one's hands, feet, or any other part of the body to ascend a steep object. It is done recreationally, competitively, in trades that rely on it, and in emergency rescue and military operations. It is done indoors and out, on natural and manmade structures.
I like that definition, that means Pins Pass, Mohlesi Pass etc (in the Drakensberg) are climbing routes - because the grass slopes are so steep in places that you end up using your hands quite a bit. Then it's settled, the best climbing route in SA is Cockade Pass :lol:

Jokes aside - it is a good definition. The confusion will be resolved by looking at the full title of the sport - e.g. "outdoor traditionally protected rock climbing", as opposed to just "climbing". So my passes example is outdoor, but is unprotected, and aside from rock passes, is not not on rock and therefore cannot be argued to be rock climbing. But I would argue that one "climbs" a mountain pass - the steep ones anyway.

It is similar to the question of whether or not a hiker going up Mafadi by Leslies Pass is in fact mountaineering. They are climbing a mountain, and thus would meet most definitions of mountaineering, unless one argues the definition of "climbing" a mountain. The definition above clears up this ambiguity.

Notably one can free-solo a grade 4 route (hands probably not required), they will just get laughed at for claiming the ascent. I.e. "outdoor unprotected and unaided rock climbing" - the rock is outside, you used no gear to protect or aid and you did move vertically up a rock, therefore it technically is. Difficulty cutoffs are important in a list like this, but no one will agree on the cut off. If I was preparing a list of best routes, I would probably start from grade 10 routes, just because I am not much of a climber and thus 10 could be challenging to me. Chris Sharma would probably start the list at 30.
Last edited by Ghaznavid on Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:23 pm

It's just Ebert being his usual unhelpful troll self. Ignore it
Happy climbing
Nic

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Re: The best climbs list

Post by Forket » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:16 pm

Nic/guardian this was made for you:

http://mojagear.com/journal/2017/03/15/ ... -climbers/

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