Climbing magazines and books have more scope when it comes to show photos of climbers in them. What I mean is that it would be nice to see photos of people climbing doing lower grades so the average person can relate more to them. It would be nice to see more photos of your average climber climbing instead of seeing photos only of people doing very difficult grades which can be very demotivating for beginners and people like myself who climb low grades.

Also two independent people have said the following to me. There are a lot more climbs in the 20s than climbs rated below 20. The problem which was mentioned is that the people doing the bolting are people climbing in the 20s so most of climb they bolt are in the 20s. We need more grades from 14-19 to be bolted. I am not a bolter and I don't have the time, I was hoping someone else out there would go and bolt more grades 14-19 legally. The group that raises money to do so, could.

aye drifter! most people seem to think that climbing is only for superfitstrongradicalweirdos. would be good for the sport if there's more climbs for everybody. and all the superclimbers would have more opportunities to introduce their new girlfriends (or boyfriends) to the life. kewl.

i dig it however to see pics of guys doing 5.15. wows and motivates.

simple, start bolting or get stronger

Yes Drifter
Nobody will have time to bolt routes if they sit by the computer the whole day and think up s.h.i.tt to post on these forums

Although seeing a guy, or girl for that matter, bust anything above a 30 is really motivating and impressive. I must agree with Drifter on this one. I would much rather see some one bust his balls to finish a lower graded route. Im all for the aspirational side to climbing, but at the end of the day we are'nt all meant to be super climbers. So f@#% it, just enjoy it, even if its a 15.

If you cant climb routes in the 20's either get stronger or stop climbing.

Dude, thats not the point. Most climbers can climb in the 20's well within the first year of the climbing career anyway, but how many people will push past the 30 mark. Not that many.

Actually Drifter most bolters have spent a huge amount of time and money developing routes in the lower grades specifically to keep the sport alive and kicking. This does little to entertain them as they usually send the routes first try in a matter of seconds. Check the guidebooks and you will see that a vast number of the easy climbs were bolted by philanthropic top climbers.

Check the facts before sprouting rubbish on the forum! Have you climbed all the routes within your grade yet?? If not you have no reason to complain! If are really that desperate for new routes then get out there and bolt your own (with the proper supervision from experienced bolters).

You say you dont have the time? Yet you have the time to complain! Where do you think myself and others found the time to bolt all those beginner routes???? It all boils down to motivation dude!

sjees guys chill out. i fully take drifter's point. a few simple obs:

most crags seem to have 60 - 70% of the climbs in the 20+ range (OK, i might end up with pie on my face if somebody does the actual calcs).
at the crags i visit more people are on the below 20s than any other grade (actually 18 and belows).
doesn't really add up eh?
now most of the peanuts cranking on the below 20s are inexperienced and doesn't have a clue how to bolt or spot a route for that matter. neither do we know (m)any climbers who can bolt. yep, fully reliant on and thankful towards the strong climbers who generally bolt the lower grades. can you please bolt a few more and help the sport develop. how can we contribute towards the cost of bolting lower grades?

and stop being so freakin nasty towards somebody who made a perfectly valid suggestion. eish!

Get real guys! Go for a climbing trip in Europe and see how many 18's you'll find. Most crags start at lower to mid 20 and up...and people climb them a lot...in fact, people que to climb them, so, no hanging around.

Personally for me, it's really boring to watch someone climb mediocre climbs. Sure, they are exciting for the climber, but it's just far more inspiring to watch a master at work. You are complaining because it hurts your fragile little egos to know that these are climbs that you cant do - YET!

If you want to break out of the 18 rut, just start jumping on 22's and work them...most of it is in your head anyway.

I agree with Gri-Gri, I have bolted many routes well under my capability. Sure, I have projects bolted too, but when I'm out scouting for a line to bolt, I look at the quality of the line, not the grade it can be. To me, a 5 star 18 is more fun to climb than a 2 star 25, so I know which one I'd bolt first.

Word of advice, forget about the grades, they limit you in your mind. Go to the crags in future WITHOUT your guide book, and learn to look at the routes and decide if you can do it or not. Grades are just a guideline and are subjective, so really, forget about them and climb lines that inspire you to climb them.

Agree with guest 100%!

Getting hung up on grades and what you can climb at that grade is very limiting, leave the guide book at home and eyeball something that looks possible and try it, you'll surprise yourself!

It also depends on what your forte is too, if you suck at overhangs or crimpy stuff then an 18 with that kind of climbing will defeat you while a 21 with characteristics that complement your strengths would be easy.

Leave the guidebook at home, work on your weaknesses by climbing stuff that challenges you and you'll see the grades improve.

Good to hear that guys that are bolting think like that guest, a nice long, clean 5 star 15 is worth alot more than a 4 bolt chossy 25 in my humble opinion

sjaap boys, point taken.

still think that most climbers in their 1st year is unlikely to hit 20+ on a regular basis. lower grades help guys, and especially girls, to get into the sport.

agree that good routes should be bolted - no matter what the grade. spot on.

Guest you got the story wrong.

I have never lost any sleep over grades. I don't see climbing as ego thing where you walk into a pub and say to a mate, 'Yesterday I climbed a grade 22 or whatever.\" I climb for the nature aspect of it, for the socialising and for the exercise.

I though understand that a beginner might want more variety when it comes to climbs they can climb. There should be more variety I personally believe and it has nothing to do with my ego

It is irrelevant what they are doing in Europe or the States, we can try to be orginal and maybe have more climbs than them in the range from grades 15-19. The only place I climbed in Europe is El Chorro and I remember there being quiet a lot of lower grades though I could be wrong.

Why do some South Africans want to implement bad policies from the States and Europe and then want to reject good policies from the States and Europe?

If most of the bolting in Europe start in the 20s then I believe they have a bad bolting policy.

Who ever is prepared to find the time, put in the effort & money, gets to decide what gets bolted.

If that's not you quit bitc#ing.

I hope that someone who decides to bolt will also bolt more grades 15-19.

Regards John

There is a lack of consideration in this country for other people. The bolting issue just highlights this.

well said Marshall,

Drifter, why not go climbing instead of posting rubbish all the time then? I tried to stick up for you in another post but now I realise that you are just an opinionated noob. go climbing and stop wasting our time. I'll bolt whatever I want to. ok?



It's not bad policy. Go to the gym and get stronger. Dont expect the bolter to lower their standards for you. If you spend half as much time at the climbing gym as you do posting inane rubbish, you'd be able to climb 22's, which really are the base level anyway. Look at the grade charts...there is NO DIFFS between an 18 and a 20, and no diffs between a 20 and a 22.

Then why don't you step up Drifter and right this injustice of too many moderate routes!

You stated in your fist post that you don't have the time to help contribute. Who do you suppose does have the time? Pretty much every single climber in SA is either a full-time student or holds down some sort of job. No one is getting paid for their time to equip or re-bolt routes that you get to climb. Yes, some of the hardware is sponsored by various organisations, but that is it.

If you really want new lines then sacrifice your time to establish routes that suite what you want to climb. Simple huh.

_________________
Open hand, open mind...

Guest I don't care what you think I am. I was stating my opinion which I am entitled to. Maybe some day people will bolt more climbs in the range grade 15-19. I do hope your tunnel vision will clear.

Mark M put me in touch with the sponsors and if they are willing to sponsor me I will give up some of my free time to bolt easier routes.

I think some people have a problem with other people having their own opinions.

I would like to see a beginner go out with bolters and point some routes out that they would like bolted.

I can take criticism but obviously some people can’t.

I think bolting has a lot to do with people just bolting new routes so that they can put their name to a climb. It is an ego thing for some people. Thats another whole debate.

whatever you say Drifter. If you are so desperate to go out and climb 15s, then why not get some trad gear and set up your own top anchors on \"some routes out that they[sic] would like bolted\"?

Or, go and buy your own drill at 5 grand a pop, 100 bucks a bit, 25 buck a bolt and go and bolt these uber cool 15s yourself...then we'll not have to hear your complaining anymore. You are welcome to join the MCSA, go on some bolting meets, apply to bolt these amazing 15s you have spotted and then go do it. Don't make it MY problem though. Like I said, I'll bolt what I am inspired to bolt, which is MY right, 'cos it's MY money and MY time. I bet you havent climbed even 1/10th of the sub 18 routes in the Cape.

And dont tell me I have tunnel vision. You are a noob, if you were a surfer, you'd be a grommet, and you'd learn very fast to respect the people who have paved the way for you. Learn to have some some respect,ok? I have climbed my whole life and the last thing I need is to be judged by a beginner who has zero knowledge and experience of the sport. Just ave some respect John.

nuff sed

uh-oh, uhmmmm, guys this really got out of hand. respect both ways. bottom line: beginners need experienced climbers to set-up and bolt routes. hopefully they can go full circle and do the same one day.

i for one will bolt lower grade routes cos i love introducing people to the sport and give everyone ample opportunity to climb. more blessed to give than recieve.

You act like someone put a gun to your head and forced you to go out and bolt, you chose to, so you don't need to get upset when someone questions what grades you bolt and asks if it is not possible for you to bolt lower grades. Yes you can bolt any grades you want with your bolts and money. My question was aimed at bolters in general to those who are also sponsored.

You talk about respect, however you the one calling people names. Maybe you should learn to control your emotions a bit more. Anger is your own worse enemy.

I don't climb high grades though I am not a beginner.

Thanks for the entertainmnent guys!!

Its a pretty simple equation if you ask me,

There are two types of bolters:

The MSCA type who bolt for the good of the sport and thus bolt some lower grade stuff, they are the ones you should be chatting to Drifter, they actively start projects from time to time to bolt 'lower' grades in certain areas that need it, like in harrismith etc. What they need is volunteers to help so if you want lower grades bolted then get involved Drifter!

And then the 'private' bolters like Guest etc who bolt for themselves, as far as I'm concerned guys like Guest have a right to bolt what they want and no obligation to bolt easy routes for beginners since it is their time and money after all hey.

Drifter who do think sponsors routes? The municipality, CNC, the headmaster, government, the teachers, maybe churches...moms & dad. Its the bolters themselves most of the time. Why do you think you should be exempt from putting your hand in your pocket & from making any effort? What right to you think you have over how & where people spend their time & money?

Easy routes are bolted to encourage beginners to start. Sport climbing allows whinners, like Drifter to participate & thrive. Sport climbing caters for them. Can't F...en stand it. Rather fewer climbers than this crap. Thats why I trad & haven't placed a bolt for a few years.

Drifter, it sounds by all the time you put into posting all this crap, that you are actualy quite into your climbing. If so, don't you have any desire to climb harder? Is 20 what you strive for? Do you want to the standards to lowered to your level?

If you can get to around 19, why the hell not push for 22 and then 25? It sounds like you are just to bloody chicken Sh!t.

I have lead a 20 before and second harder though I don't think grades are important as long as you enjoying yourself. I am just as scared on a grade 14 than on a grade 20 as if you fall 10 meters on a grade 14 or a grade 20 you will hurt yourself the same. It is just as dangerous to climb a grade 14 than a grade 20.

Once again I have to say I don't care if you think I am chicken or whatever.

Thanks for the feedback though.