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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:36 pm 
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Hi everyone,

It has come to my attention that the land these climbs are on is OFF LIMITS to everyone. Anyone who had intended on going to climb here may not. The land is part of the snake park's reserve and may NOT be accessed

The routes were put up a number of years back, and since then nobody has been back there.

There are a number of reasons why the access issue was never thought about.

1- there are no fences and one can access the area directly from the street.
2 - many of us grew up climbing trad routes on this mountain.
3 - the mountain is the same one as the Chosspile, with this area only a few hundred meters from the upper crags that already exist there.
4 - the area was originally accessed from a walk off route from the Chosspile.
5 - there is a well worn trail that leads to the top of this cliff, which led me to believe that this area was being used for hiking.
6 - There are constantly tramps and vagrants living in these hills, making fires and littering, which led me to believe that people were freely accessing the land.

Climbers pose no threat and are eco conscious people who like to enjoy nature.

I would like to apologise for any inconvenience caused, and the climbs will be removed to prevent anyone from going to the area to climb.


Last edited by stormtrooper on Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:08 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:15 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:52 am
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Location: Joburg
Hey Rob

I PM'd you already to ask for the RD.
It sounds like a great crag and it sounds like you guys have done a lot of hard work there.
Thanks!

As for the MCSA bit, I have no idea what happened with Neil (whether he actually received the info you sent or what) so I'm not going to comment on that issue.
But please don't give up on the MCSA on the basis of one exchange with one person. There are a LOT of MCSA members who will be SUPER excited to hear about your new crag. I'm one of them. :D

I'm not sure what you'd like to do in repect of the MCSA, but if you maybe decide that you haven't given up on them completely, then get hold of me on the email address I sent you in my PM and we can go from there. I'm sure that they'd be keen to send out the info in their newsletter, with your permission. Gimme a shout if you're interested or if you have any other ideas.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:41 am 
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Location: Waterval Boven
Neil was probably too busy organising the MCSA Rock and Road Trip. You missed out on that one Wboy! And we missed you there...

As for the new routes, once and for all EVERYBODY: the writing up of new (and old routes) is not up to the MCSA, its members or the webmaster of this site, it is up to YOU and ME.

Just look left on your screen under contents and click on Wiki.

Rob, just go direct to http://www.climb.co.za/wiki/index.php?title=The_Chosspile. Take a bit of time to get used to the setup in the Wiki and make your contribution.

Look at Bronkies: http://www.climb.co.za/wiki/index.php?title=Bronkies . Simply a list of routes and directions - all you need for an easy to find crag.

If everybody takes it upon themselves to add or correct a bit at a time, the work get done quick-quick.

Remember, you can add regions and crags as well as google earth maps, pics and topos. Time to get creative...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:47 am 
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Location: Waterval Boven
PS: Any volunteers to take the routes from http://www.saclimb.co.za and put them onto the Wiki?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:12 am 
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I'll do it, if no one minds.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:14 am 
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PS: Who's site is SaClimb and won't they mind? I've always loved that site, only complaint is infrequent updates.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:17 am 
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Location: Waterval Boven
Joffrey, a friend of Paul B owns it.

He has lost interest. There is no copyright on route information, so go ahead - copy & paste away!

Do it quick before Joffrey closes the the site down...

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013 257 0363
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:27 am 
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Will do.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:06 am 
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Hi stormtrooper, great work on the route.

But I think its a bit poor to name and shame Neil when you are not posting under your own name. If you knew the guy, you'd know what a lot of work he has been doing for the MCSA recently on a number of fronts, not just the Rock n Road trip. I don't always agree with him either, but you can't really doubt his commitment to developing climbing through the MCSA.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:32 am 
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pm


Last edited by stormtrooper on Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:34 am 
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pm


Last edited by stormtrooper on Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:39 am 
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Enjoy


Last edited by stormtrooper on Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:29 am 
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Gustav wrote:
Joffrey, a friend of Paul B owns it.

He has lost interest. There is no copyright on route information, so go ahead - copy & paste away!

Do it quick before Joffrey closes the the site down...


<rant>
I think it's piss poor manners to copy and paste someone else's effort without asking or (at the very least) acknowledging the source.

Just because someone posted it on the web doesn't mean it's all fair game. I feel very strongly that the original authors of RD's get the acknowledgement they deserve. It's hard work!

That said, I think that Wiki's are an excellent way of encouraging community participation and keeping RD's up to date. I'm also pretty sure that someone who's already posted their RD on the web would be pretty happy to share their work.

The Moral 'Ask first'.
</rant>

Sorry about that Gus, I just get uncomfortable when people encourage 'copy and paste' tactics...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:43 am 
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Oh PLEASE oOdball, it's just route information, not someones novel they've written. As long as the info is correct then who cares?

Guys, please don't hijack this thread with another topic like this. Make a new one called \"Piracy of the route guide data\" and put it into the \"irrelevant info\" section.

Please use this thread to communicate and relay info regarding THE CATWALK


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:53 am 
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pls. pm me for details


Last edited by stormtrooper on Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:14 am 
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Yes, there is a lot of info missing on the exchange in question and a public forum isn't really the civilised place to air it anyway.

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 Post subject: AWSOME
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:36 am 
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Location: Johannesburg
Hozit

THis is AWSOME I'm going to check to out 8)


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:06 pm 
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In another thread where CatWalk was discussed,
weasilboy wrote:
so solid access will need to be negotiated before it can become public

@Stormtrooper, any update on access permissions? I'd hate to lose the routes (and your bolting efforts) if the landowner gets upset and bans all climbing.

PS - are you weasilboy?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:00 pm 
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Hi. Pls pm me for details


Last edited by stormtrooper on Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:52 pm 
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Try to e-mail the webmaster on the Sacin site and ask for permission...

Quote:
Just because someone posted it on the web doesn't mean it's all fair game.


I'd say once it is on the web, it is fair game. Give credit to the source, but for everybody's info, put it on da Wiki.

Do you Wiki?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:10 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
he stormboy thanks a mil for the info on the crag will go check it out sometime. it looks awesome

not wanting to stir more than necessary, but you could have given neil some slack. what if he never got your mail? he is a lank nice guy who has done a lot for climbing - respect. love thinks no evil


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:55 pm 
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who cares people? just get out there and climb.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:34 pm 
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Just wanted to comment on the Saclimb issue. It is Joffrey's site and when I last spoke to him - end of 2006 - he said he was to busy at work and had no time to update the site and would love to have someone to take control of the site for him - but it would have to be someone he could trust as saclimb is his baby that he put many hours of work into.

I will try make contact with him and get him to post a reply, but am sure that he would love to know that the information he has gathered over the years is still benifitting climbers.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:59 pm
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Location: South Africa
Real Name: Joffrey Hyman
oOdball wrote:
Gustav wrote:
Joffrey, a friend of Paul B owns it.

He has lost interest. There is no copyright on route information, so go ahead - copy & paste away!

Do it quick before Joffrey closes the the site down...


<rant>
I think it's piss poor manners to copy and paste someone else's effort without asking or (at the very least) acknowledging the source.

Just because someone posted it on the web doesn't mean it's all fair game. I feel very strongly that the original authors of RD's get the acknowledgement they deserve. It's hard work!

That said, I think that Wiki's are an excellent way of encouraging community participation and keeping RD's up to date. I'm also pretty sure that someone who's already posted their RD on the web would be pretty happy to share their work.

The Moral 'Ask first'.
</rant>

Sorry about that Gus, I just get uncomfortable when people encourage 'copy and paste' tactics...


If someone actually asked me I would appreciate it & glady say yes.

PS. If anyone would like to talk about taking the site over we can talk.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:44 pm 
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Hey Joffrey

Good to see you active... Just to make it clear, I did not mean that we should copy and paste before you notice but rather get a move on updating things before the sacin site expires or something.

Thanks for keeping it alive anyway even if it is not actively updated.

What do you think of getting routes up onto the wiki, or would you prefer to keep the Sacin site alive?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:39 pm 
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Site Admin
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Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:33 pm
Posts: 100
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Riki Lawson
ClimbZA has received the following correspondence from the Hartbeespoortdam Snake and Animal Park.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The mountainside opposite the park, stretching from the high school in the east to the dam wall in the west, is known as the mountain reserve and falls under the jurisdiction of the Snake and Animal Park. All access by the general public to this area is prohibited. We do not allow hiking, mountain climbing or any trespassing what so ever in this area.

Your colleague “Stormtroop” has posted information about this mountainside on a web site. Is it possible to supply this gentleman’s true name and address so that we may investigate and take whatever steps are necessary to stop him and his colleagues trespassing on our property. The Park will hold this gentlemen and any of his colleagues, legally liable for all costs occurred to prevent further trespassing and damage to the property.

We hope this message is taken very seriously by those people who intend emulating “Stormtroop” as this gentlemen’s actions are totally illegal.

Regards,
Jack Seale
Hartbeespoortdam Snake & Animal Park


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 Post subject: SACIN
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:45 pm 
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Hi Joffrey

Apologies, for some reason I foolishly thought you had given permission / did not care to respond. Could you please answer Gustav's question - do prefer keeping SACIN alive? On the one hand I would volunteer to keep it alive, but with a tool like the Wiki competing I think it's doomed to a slow death.

I'd be happy to remove the stuff I added should you not approve of having it there.

Cheers

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Last edited by OneDogClimbing on Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:53 pm 
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re: Hartbeespoortdam Snake and Animal Park - access

Is there a specific reason for not allowing access - is because it's a reserve? Any chance, despite this incident, of access in the future?

Pity, I still wanted to go & check it out some time.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:03 pm 
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Location: Gauteng, Pretoria
Hey StormTrooper, you got busted bru.
Sorry to hear that you have been trasspassing and bolting on restricted land.

We have this thing at the MCSA called the 'Land and Access' sub-committee, perhaps if you were an MCSA member you might have found all this out before wasting your time, money and effort putting up routes that no-one is allowed to access.
Nothing against non MCSA climbers but there are some definite advantages to being a member, especially if you a route developer.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:16 pm 
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I think the Snake Park's approach is kind of strange. Instead of wanting to chase everyone away, why not create a situation where people need to come to the snake park to pay an access fee etc, more income and exposure for the snake park, less chance of squatters on the hills, more access for climbers - everyone wins?


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