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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:14 pm 
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Ok so I'm lank pissed!!!

I was strolling around in Cedarberg only to come across a set chains at the top of a route... So I ask my self... WTF... The kloofs are not a sport climbing venue, FULL STOP. Yes there are a few bolts here and there... and every single one of them pisses me off, but I just live with it because they were there before I was... But in 2005 a few routes got re-bolted and well, some of it was ok as it was needed. But it would appear to me that when some of these routes were getting re-bolted a few EXTRA bolts just happen to have been added. And to be frank I think who ever did it deserves to have his head ripped off.
The route I'm talking about seems to be:

CARRION COMFORT 25 (H2) R *** [4B,N]
About 100m downstream of the MCSA signpost there is a buttress. There is a crack on the downstream side, climb the steep face 5m right of this crack.

1. 25 (H2) 10m Climb the face using 4 bolts.

First Ascent: 1992 M Seegers, D Margetts

To the best of my knowledge that’s the original route description... it says nothing about chains... but now this route boasts a set of chains at the top... well not for long as they will soon get chopped! In actual fact I'm going to chop the whole bloody route! If you want to climb a 10 meter sport route go to Strubens Valley! And when I'm done chopping that one I'm going to move onto the next route covered in bolts... Terminator... I believe that a few extra bolts where added to that route as well... one of them right next to a bomber cam placement, but fear not I will work the route to get a feel for it and see what bolts can be replaced by natural gear. When I‘m done there I'll look around for similar routes and keep chopping bolts and filling the scars before I start chopping at the people bolting the routes...

The kloofs are not a sport venue... so don’t try making routes that are nearly all sport into full sport routes...

How iz this for an idea:
Boven is a sport venue... we all know that and that’s cool... there are a few splitter cracks in boven riddled with bolts... and that’s only just ok because it is such a big sport venue... So my idea is for every useless/extra bolt I find in the kloofs and chop I'll chop a bolt somewhere in Boven. I was thinking of starting on, oh maybe Lotters Desire... but dont worry. After chopping the bolt I'll cut a nice neat crack (with an angle grinder) into the rock for a sinker nut placement. I'll be sure to tell Gustaf to update the rout guide with what size nuts you’ll need to fit in each of the cracks... by the way… make sure you have a full set of nuts with you, as I think I'm going to find a lot more chop-able bolts in Magalies than you think...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:32 am 
It's ironic that you used the word 'chop' so much! :lol:

bit of a purist eh? you should leave the chains there so I can ab off them next time. All forms of climbing should be banned, except for trad.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:31 am 
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Not that I really care about this ever-ongoing-never-ending argument, but really, what stops you climbing past the bolts on natural protection? And I don't buy the \"they're an eyesore\" thing, cos they some teensy, tiny little stainless bolts that you can barely see from the bottom of the crag, let alone from further away. So, what the real beef?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:12 am 
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Proze clearly you dont get it... have you climbed on natural gear??

Ask yourself why you climb? Somewhere the emotion of satisfaction will be a part of the bigger picture

Climbing a natural crack riddled with bolts is like dropping a piece of choclate cake on the beach... sure you can still eat it! Scrape off all the iceing. But you just dont get the same satisfaction as you could have; if you had been outside the bakery door since 3am waiting for them to open.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:32 am 
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I belive the bolts were replaced by Neil Margetts (D. Margetts's brother) so I assume he had permission.
There are further chains that you can moan about at the chocolate factory. Personally I don't see the problem, they are sport routes after all.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:39 am 
quick question Fanta:
why is it that people who climb trad have this urge to go on about things like this? Let's put this into perspective...the world is nearing 7 billion people, we face a massive global warming crisis AND someone put some little chains above a climb.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:54 am 
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Sigh. Dead horse beaten. Dumbass.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:55 am 
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@ Mark

The kloofs are not a sport climbing area for a good reason!
Are you saying that you see no problem or problems at choss pile and bronkies?

@ Trooper
Its because of attitudes like yours that we have all those problems...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:03 am 
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@MarkM: just to set you straight, Darryl and I did the re-bolting of that route a few year back, in 2004 I think, along with some other routes in Fernkloof and yes we had permission.

@Fanta: no comment on your opinion, I just couldn't be bothered.

@Earth: sorry for being a climber, consuming resources and energy persueing my sport that no doubt produces loads of CO2 during the manufacturing my lovely gear and the travelling around i do to get to my favourite crags.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:08 pm 
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Hear hear Gareth!

@fanta: If you cut through all the crap, you'll realise that you're a relative purist - a purist about selective things:

fanta wrote:
But in 2005 a few routes got re-bolted and well, some of it was ok as it was needed. But it would appear to me that when some of these routes were getting re-bolted a few EXTRA bolts just happen to have been added. And to be frank I think who ever did it deserves to have his head ripped off.


...ok as it was needed? So you have no problem when YOU judge the bolts to be needed? But you're going to chop bolts more than a 1000kms away as vengeance for bolts that YOU decide aren't needed? Being angry about some bolts but not others just makes no sense, and your silly little idea of undoing someone else's work in a different province sucks dude.

fanta wrote:
After chopping the bolt I'll cut a nice neat crack (with an angle grinder) into the rock for a sinker nut placement.

Great thinking - instead of making it better, just make it worse! Genius!

You want to be a real purist? Solo and don't step on plants, walk to the crag and live in a cave. Don't eat a lot, don't breed, drive or breathe too much (you know you exhale greenhouse gasses?). Stop using your computer, electricity and weave your own clothes.

My dick is bigger than yours because I climb trad. Thats why my previous post identifies you as a dumbass.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:09 pm 
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@Fanta - Sure there are problems at both (the eagles :lol: , the smell from Hartees), however I don't think a set of chains above an existing sport route is going to bring in the crowds (just to keep things in perspective).

While we're on the topic, another route that could do with a set of chains (and possibly a new set of bolts) is Twilight Floozy, also in Cedarberg Kloof, also a sport route...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:30 pm 
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Fanta, after you have worked the moves on Terminator for your proposed trad ascent, can you please send me your beta. I have tried that route many times (with and without the additional steel at the top) and I can use all the help I can get!

A point to ponder: I don't think many people will send that thing in true trad style or even try, but if you leave it alone, it might just get done...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:23 pm 
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Aaaa.... Didier, Didier, you have created a following.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:15 pm 
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give fanta a break he was just letting off steam off course he won't go chopping bolts on sport routes as revenge....... personally i highly respect trad-only views but simply love sport climbing so what the hey, that tension is was and will be. live with it.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:18 pm 
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Guys Guys!

Every one behave now, we have seen the same old argument go on and on and on, for as long as I can recall.

Point is \"The kloofs\" are manly a trad area, so to say, and I hope it will always be. It seems to me that Fanta has got a point and so have most of you (except the beaver dont know WTF that was about). Sports routes should be kept to the sports crags per say and trad, well anywhere you can find place to stick your pro.
The minute you start bolting routes the kloofs, every trigger happy drill freak :twisted: will be there trying to get his or her name as it may be in the route books. That is the last thing I want, can you imagine climbing strait edge or slip stream or even last rights, clipping in to bolts? If you can you, could just as well be pimping out your granny!! :shock:

Here is my 2 cents, keep the Kloofs trad and the sport areas sport and if is all ready there LEAVE IT ALONE! It will rust off eventually!!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:04 am 
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The issue here is not about NEW sport routes going up in the kloofs. I'm pretty sure that a bolt has not been placed on a new line in the kloofs in the last 10 years or so (Lofty correct me if I'm wrong :lol: ). The issue here is about a set of chains that were placed above an existing sport route when it got re-bolted. To me it's a non-issue.

As for re-placing existing bolts, I also don't see the issue. The 'style' in which the route climbs is still identical to the way it was done on the 1st ascent.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:21 pm 
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Correct me if I'm wrong as I may well be, but I thought the kloofs in question were all trad (no pure sport)- except where the extremely limited or non-existing protection meant a bolt made a fantastic climb possible.

MarkM, the route fanta mentions seems to have a few new bolts and chains added making it an all sport route? Where this was climbable before without them(in fact the style of the FA)?

A dodgy precedent to set in a trad area...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:13 am 
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The following taken from http://www.saclimb.co.za/news.html

Routes rebolted in Magaliesberg 2005/03/17
Over the past few weeks the following routes in the Tonquani complex in the Magaliesberg have been inspected and re-bolted. In some cases, bolts were added (with the permission of the first ascentionist). Top anchors have also been placed where needed.
Boulder Kloof
1. Fame, fortune and glory (27) - R Nattrass, 1988. Fully retrobolted, 2005
Upper Tonquani
2. Cadbury (22) - M Cartwright, C O'Dowd, 1989. 3 bolts replaced, 2005
3. Nestle (23) - M Cartwright, C O'Dowd, 1989. 3 bolts replaced, 2005
4. Last train to glory (21) - R Dodding, 1990. Inspected, top anchors added 2005
5. Return of the Jedi (21) - D Margetts et al, 1989. Inspected, top anchors added 2005
Cederberg Kloof
6. Carrion comfort (25) - M Seegers, D Margetts, 1992. 4 bolts replaced, 2005
7. Horse latitudes (22) - M Seegers, D Margetts, 1992. 1 bolt replaced, 2005
8. Riders of the storm (25) - D Margetts, M Seegers, 1992. 1 bolt replaced, 2005
9. Terminator (28) - M Cartwright, 1990. Inspected
10. Climbing in bed with Madonna (27) - P Lazerus, 1991. Fully re-bolted, 2005

This leaves 24 routes with bolts on in the Tonquani complex unchecked. If anyone is keen to re-bolt them, please contact Neil Margetts. You should get
the bolts courtesy of the MCSA. The routes that have received attention have all been found to be of excellent quality. Go try them!


Although the news states that bolts were added to some routes, I'm not sure which ones received new steel (perhaps Fame, fortune & Glory?). As far as I can tell from the nwes above, bolts were only replaced and anchors added where necessary. Not sure where your dodgy precedent comes in?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:05 am 
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Quote:
But it would appear to me that when some of these routes were getting re-bolted a few EXTRA bolts just happen to have been added.


Quote:
CARRION COMFORT 25 (H2) R *** [4B,N]
About 100m downstream of the MCSA signpost there is a buttress. There is a crack on the downstream side, climb the steep face 5m right of this crack.

1. 25 (H2) 10m Climb the face using 4 bolts.

First Ascent: 1992 M Seegers, D Margetts

To the best of my knowledge that’s the original route description... it says nothing about chains... but now this route boasts a set of chains at the top...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:33 am 
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Oh, I just checked the old RD's on all those routes you listed from Sacin and I'd guess very few pure sport climbers are going to hit those without a good couple of trad pieces. 4 bolts to 25m seems to say mixed route - at a serious grade.

My point is Mark, that there has been a lot of trigger-happy bolting recently from many parties, and Magalies seems/ed to be a refuge from that trend.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:49 am 
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Quote:
Top anchors have also been placed where needed


Go have a look at the route Mark... or have you climbed it?
Can anyone who has climbed that route make any comment...
How many ascents has it seen?
How many stars do you think it should get.

If I get time I hope to try the route this Friday afternoon... but for the life of me can't see why chains are needed on that route...

I have spoken D. Margetts (actually he phoned me the same day I started this thread). He has explained the history of the route to me; he also said he would change the top anchors :shock: I also apologised for
Quote:
trooper:

It's ironic that you used the word 'chop' so much!


also the general aggression in my opening post. However he chooses not to post any comments here... should he so choose too, they would be most appreciated.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:52 am 
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megawat, could you please elaborate on a lot of trigger-happy bolting?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:53 am 
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if i had to guess it would be what was going on in bronkies; around the eagles nest???


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:19 pm 
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Magalies is a fairly unique case. There's scope for tons of sport routes and its close to jhb/pta. Most of the other \"trad\" venues in the old Transvaal are a bit of a mission and probably wouldnt make good sport crags. The magalies, though, is extremely fragile and just couldnt support sport climbing like we see at Bronkies/Boven etc. Thats why people get upset about bolting here specifically.
Having said that, I have placed bolts in Magalies. I have both replaced old bolts and bolted new routes (at a crag where there are no trad lines possible and where numbers will have little impact). The main question is always: \"is the route worth it?\" Now who's to say what the answer is. One guy's 5* route is another guy's 3* route.
I reckon the general rule for magalies should be no new bolts. Old bolts should only be replaced if the route is excellent. If a bolt is dodge and the route is not great, it should be left or get the chop. No bolts should be added (chains included). Take Storm Watch. It was climbed with no chains on the FA, then chains were added, arguably changing the route.
I realise that in general there has been no indescriminate bolting in Magalies. Lets just make sure that it stays like that.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:06 pm 
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Hmmm, someone writing 'IP' in large chalk letters under the eagle's nest does not constitute a lot of trigger-happy bolting, nor does the last lines bolted on either side of the eagles nest (paranoia on the left and blue suede shoes on the right are the established lines, and no one has disputed that). If you look at the thread 'Project defiled at Bronkies', you'll notice my support of the signposts being put up.

Bronkies is, last time I checked, a sport venue. Is bolting another route, further away from the eagle's nest, worthy of being called a lot of trigger-happy bolting?

And no fanta, I don't think I know you in real life, but then again neither of our names on here are real.


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 Post subject: bolting?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:06 pm 
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I was under the impression that there was a “moratorium” on bolting in the Magaliesberg ? So what’s the issue? No bolting in the Magaliesberg, rather simple I would think?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:56 pm 
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Hi Fanta, I placed the bolt and chain on Terminator. I did it after chatting to Mike Cartwright the original ascentionist, infact he suggested bolting it properly. A chain at the top of the route is really not going to make any difference. I have climbed on most trad and sport cliffs in the world and have a very strong ethical stance. Belive me, a chain atop a route with 4 existing bolts is absolutely fine; if anything it stops people setting up slings around trees and having ropes rubbing lichen off the top, which is actually damaging. I would be very annoyed if Fanta chops the bolts and chain. I would not be silly like him and run out there or make angry threats or even rebolt the route but I would feel sorry for him, spending a day wasting time for what is such a non-topic. If you really do plan on chopping it, please check with Mike, its really his decision. You are quite silly.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:09 pm 
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Quote:
andrew p
You are quite silly.


Its great we are all entitled to our own opinion... who knows; perhaps I am but I only have the best interests for the kloofs as a whole at heart...



Quote:
I did it after chatting to Mike Cartwright the original ascensionist, infact he suggested bolting it properly.
...
If you really do plan on chopping it, please check with Mike, its really his decision.



I have a huge issue when people who open routes think that they \"OWN\" the route and that they \"OWN\" the rock beneath it and feel that they have the right to the final decision about what should happen to it...
No disrespect to Mike C... Hell WEL DONE you were the first to climb that brick hard problem! But you still don’t have the right to decide what to do to it... Its Club property and Club policy should be respected...

As for \"permission\" to place bolts and chains. I'm curious to know; was a committee decision or a single persons decision to allow it…


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:43 pm 
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Fanta, I have been following this thread and really, you are being a real baby.

Maybe you didnt notice the contradiction in your last post. Let me point it out to you.

Quote:
perhaps I am but I only have the best interests for the kloofs as a whole at heart.


then you say:

Quote:
I have a huge issue when people who open routes think that they \"OWN\" the route and that they \"OWN\" the rock beneath it and feel that they have the right to the final decision about what should happen to it.


Now YOU are the one deciding how things should be done.

Quote:
Its Club property and Club policy should be respected.

Quote:
As for \"permission\" to place bolts and chains. I'm curious to know; was a committee decision or a single persons decision to allow it…


This really is an elitist attiude. The fact that being a member makes you think you OWN a route over a legend like Mike C's judgement is ridiculous. Who are you man? What great things have you put up that makes you qualified? As for Andrew P, I have nothing but respect for his routes, his achievements and his judgement. What have YOU done that makes you an authority? is it that you are a 'club' member?

Fanta, you have been making a r s e of yourself for some time on this thread. Thanks for showing us all your true colors.

Quote:
committee decision


hahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaa! you guys are really something!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:50 am 
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There is an important distinction here:

(1) It is climbing etiquette to consult the FA before placing bolts,
BUT
(2) It is necessary to consult landowners before placing bolts or otherwise modifying their property.

No-one is criticising MC. It's just that he doesn't have the authority to speak for the landowner.

Instead of degrading others, let's ask whether the bolts in question are consistent with the kloof management policy, or whether permission for the bolts was granted by the landowner/landmanager.

As Andrew placed the bolts, he's in a good position to answer.


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