It is currently Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:03 am

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:31 pm
Posts: 99
Location: Pretoria
Howzit!

I've got a short movie clip on my PC where the climber (unknown) says he got a lot stronger & improved his endurance from just hanging on all the grips of his hangboard...

My question: does deadhanging (and not doing any pull-ups) REALLY help with strength, power & endurance?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:11 pm
Posts: 80
Steve Dunning seems to think that 3 to 5 reps of 25 - 30 sec deadhangs are the optimal strength building workout. he suggects 3 min rests between goes, and a 10 min rest between changing holds and starting again.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
Posts: 2961
Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
Hangs >This is a very good way to build finger strength and endurance. Remember not to dead-hang as this is bad for your elbows and shoulders - rather keep the elbows slightly bent. For strength hang for 10 seconds to failure. When you can hang the big edge well, go to the small edge. When you can hang the small edge well, strap on that weight belt. The same applies to pockets and slopers. For power endurance hang for 30 seconds on an appropriate grip, rest for 30 seconds and then repeat until your forearms explode.

Taken from geckogrips.co.za

_________________
Climb ZA - Administrator


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:31 pm
Posts: 99
Location: Pretoria
Justin wrote:
Remember not to dead-hang as this is bad for your elbows and shoulders - rather keep the elbows slightly bent.


I've also read that on gecko's website, but can anyone give us a good reason why "dead-hanging" is regarded as a no-go?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:09 pm
Posts: 248
As I understand:
When your shoulders etc are 'enguaged' - the muscles in and around those areas keep everything together, and things like tendons, cartelage and bone joints can all do their respective job (conecting muscles, lubrication and transferring compressions)
When you relax on a deadhang - your finger muscles are fine (sort of) but in your shoulder your weight is quite literally pulling your shoulder apart, and only being kept together by things like cartelage etc, and the muscles that are meant to facilitate that particular movement aren't doing that. Ie hang on muscles which are designed for that - not on your sockets and cartelage.

Having said that I'm just a dumb commerce student and I'm sure that the above wouldn't stand up for pigbullet in a first year medical exam - that's just my interpretation having listened to people's whingings around the campfire.
Also mum is a physio...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:01 am
Posts: 139
Location: Crab Nebula
@ant

As I understand it, you're pretty much right. This is also why hanging jugs with straight arms on a route gives you a good rest; the major pulling muscles (shoulders, lats etc.) are doing a lot less work. Straight arm hanging is great for saving that extra bit of energy you need for a send, but not great when you're using additional weight in a training situation. So focus on form and keep those big muscles active while using your fingerboard.

My motto: Most climbing training is bad for your body, so you probably shouldn't bother anyway :wink:

_________________
You have an opinion, so do I. When these differ, please don't confuse your opinion with the truth, nothing is absolute.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:01 pm
Posts: 264
Location: JHB
But jugs are great :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 7:39 am
Posts: 57
I have noticed there has been a lot of debate as how one should train and get strong. Reading one book or hearing one theory can be misleading. Training is a complexed thing, with many actions and reactions. The weight training thing has it's place, but doesn't make you climb better. Just doing loads of pull-up does not help. The fingerboard is one of the best training tools for climbing and if used properly can improve ones power and endurance many fold. A dead-hang does not necessarily mean your shoulders are relaxed, try hanging on a small edge with relaxed shoulders, doesn't work. Depending on your objective, fingers, lats, max power <4 sec, power >4 sec <10 sec, power endurance >10 sec <20 sec, endurance >20 sec, you will be training on different size edges and dead hanging or pulling or locking off. Beware of the dangers of max power training. Never train your fingers and arms at the same time, your fingers are much smaller and will rip. Dead hanging on a huge jug has no effect what so ever, the jugs are there for pulling on and doing lock offs. If you can dead hang on the smallest edge for more than 4 sec then add a weight belt for max power. If you can lock off on a jug for more than 4 sec then add a weight belt for max power. Remember guys climbing is a power endurance sport so a good mix of these exercises is recommended. For more info come to one of my coaching workshops this summer, then we can deal with all these questions and get you cranking and training properly, this is what I am qualified to do. Stuart Brown at sdbrown@mweb.co.za


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:48 pm
Posts: 265
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Guy Holwill
As Stuart said, climbing and, therefore, training is very complex. This is one reason why many of the best climbers don't \"train\" - they just go climbing (which is actually training to them).

For the rest of us, with limited climbing time due to inconveniences like jobs, mortgages, families, social lives etc - training is essential if you want to improve.

The best book about training is still Performance Rock Climbing by Goddard and Neuman. One of their concepts is that you need to evaluate your weaknesses before starting any training program. Once you know what you're bad at (ask your friends if you don't know) - then focus your training on that aspect.

Finger strength is the single most important physical attribute (if you can't hang on, then you can't do anything) - so you always want to train that. A hangboard is probably the best option here - bouldering works, but you can improve on problems with better technique and not by getting stronger.

Upper body strength is fairly important, especially if you are naturally weak. Body weight exercises like lock-offs and front levers are best.

Core strength is critical (ie body tension) and it is hard to get outside of climbing. Pilates is for people who are too weak to do proper training (it will never get you up 8c).

However, the most important thing is to enjoy the training that you do - that way you'll do more of it. But more isn't always better - because the one certainty is that too much of any training will break you.

So you see, it's complex.

_________________
There's no point being pessimistic, because it probably won't work


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 7:39 am
Posts: 57
Just going out climbing will never work, it can only work with some kind of system, hard days, soft days, work routes, do laps.... This sounds like training. A lot of the top guys who only climb and claim not to do any training, trained bloody hard to get there in the beginning. These guys think and live like athletes. The book Guy recommends is very good, but one can learn so much more by sharing with other climbers. The books are not that easy to put into practice. There is a lot of info and what does Mr. Joe Soap do with all that info when he eventually gets on the rock. I read them all, but made my biggest improvements talking to other climbers who had been there done that. Coaching is big in Switzerland and most of the climbers know what to do when it comes down to training. If you want to get better at Golf, you might buy a book, but you will more than likely get a coach and take a few lessons. Every other golfer on the course will give you tips, but you only make real progress with some coaching and practice. It took me 20 years of climbing to get to grade 30, I wish I knew what I know now, it would take me 3 at the most. Nuff said, the main thing is have loads of fun!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:31 pm
Posts: 99
Location: Pretoria
Stu, I've been climbing for just over 2 years now so I have a long way to go just to reach grade 25... :)

Anyway, since you raised the point, do you mind sharing some of the biggest lessons you've learned while working your way up to a grade 30?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:29 am
Posts: 179
I see the focus of this topic has been on short-term improvement.

For me, the fastest way of improving long-term is staying injury free!

Three things that help me:
1. Climbing outdoors is less likely to injury you... and more fun!!
2. You need to train HARD but also to REST accordingly!
3. Most important! Listen to your body, you'll be surprized how this helps!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:30 pm
Posts: 74
Technique!!!!!
Although strength and stamina are vital, without technique you are useless!!!
Thats why these scragly chics and 12 year old kids are putting big brutes to shame. Everyone knows about the old ballies in Font who dont even break a sweat on hard problems.
The idea is to do the moves with as little energy expenditure as possible.
Technique = efficent power /strength management.
A huge pool of engrams= good technique.
Try down climbing all the problems /routes you do when training!! It'll save you hours of hanging out on your finger board, and is increasing power, strength and engrams!!
Force is not the only solution!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:17 am
Posts: 147
for me, as i'm discovering now, it takes ALLOT of training on Power, Power Endurance and plain Endurance to increase my grade in any climb harder than 28. things get exponentially harder when going into anything grade 26 and up. technique will only get you so far, as well as power, but to 'get there', you need to kick a$$(maybe just your own) getting into shape! i agree with stu on taking the 'long road' to grade 30, and once you're there you can maintain the standard, which means less work than 'getting there'. and scott is right in saying that you must keep yourself injury free by resting in time - very wise approach scott!

one things for sure though! the grades won't walk up to you, you need to go get them!!!
:)

_________________
you have one mouth, two ears. listen more...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 7:39 am
Posts: 57
The original topic was Fingerboard related, now everyone is coming in at all angles and proving that there are many ways to skin the cat. Outdoor better than plastic, no need to train, technique versus power, down climbing, injuries, rest, 28 is way harder the 26, short term/long term, body tension, Pilates, bone joints, lubrication??? and on and on and on. We all have loads of valid points to make, just like all the guys on the golf course, but it is not structured and no one has learned a single thing.

Fingerboard training is very good and if done properly works wonders. I have given an indication as to what one should do on the board. If you do not think training is nesesary then this is the wrong topic for you, if you think outdoors is better hang the fingerboard in the garden. So when we leave personal preferances out of the equasion and get down to the nitty gritty the following is the base to fingerboard training. As mentioned before.

Depending on your objective, fingers, lats, max power <4 sec, power >4 sec <10 sec, power endurance >10 sec <20 sec, endurance >20 sec, you will be training on different size edges and dead hanging or pulling or locking off. Beware of the dangers of max power training. Never train your fingers and arms at the same time, your fingers are much smaller and will rip. Dead hanging on a huge jug has no effect what so ever, the jugs are there for pulling on and doing lock offs. If you can dead hang on the smallest edge for more than 4 sec then add a weight belt for max power. If you can lock off on a jug for more than 4 sec then add a weight belt for max power. Remember guys climbing is a power endurance sport so a good mix of these exercises is recommended.

A proper training program will improve ones climbing grades and enjoyment of climbing in general. The quicker you can get to climb the grade you want to climb the longer you will be able to enjoy that grade. Do not set limits, time wise or grade wise. Just because it took some oh 10 years to get to 28 doesn't mean you have to take 10 years too. Just get out there crank as hard as you need to and as I said before, have loads of fun!!! and enjoy the many aspects climbing offers.

For more info, contact me directly sdbrown@mweb.co.za

Stuart


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:59 pm
Posts: 162
My two cents.

A finger-board is used to cover weaknesses or lack of time spent climbing. If you have a home wall or gym, structure your training around actual problems: these are direct access gains. (Note, this doesn't mean just having fun bouldering at the wall.) If you've been climbing less than 2 years, chances are the time spent on your board could be put to better use doing moves.

Fingerboards, campus boards, rings.. these are for the poor folk living on the grade plateau.

If you are going to use them, consider your weaknesses and other climbing you get in. If you already go out bouldering a few times a week, chances are your recruitment levels and finger strength are already high, consider adding some forearm stamina, and perhaps some core. A campus board workout is likely a waste. The opposite would be the case if you do routes a few times a week: campusing, high intensity fingers and arm-strength workouts would balance your abilities. Presuming you want balance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:13 am
Posts: 147
Location: Benoni
Real Name: David Wade
Training should target your weaknesses, so the question we should be asking Stephan is:

what do you think your climbing weakness is between:

- Technique
- Mental state while climbing
- Strength
- Endurance

The answer to this will determin weather finger board training will be highly benaficial, or weather you would do better to invest your time in other forms of training


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], crimpmaster, Google [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group