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Why did Danny's 'biner break?
It was too old 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
It cross loaded over the gate 83%  83%  [ 5 ]
Bad karma comes from borrowing gear from friends 17%  17%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 6
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Gustav
 Post subject: Danny's big fall ...
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:28 pm 
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Location: Waterval Boven
Danny Pinkas wrote the following
Quote:
I'm fine, AC, thanks for asking though. Got a bit of a fright, that's all.
I took about a 1m fall on the top pitch of Butterfly. The quickdraw, a Mamba in very good condition (hardly used) broke. Unfortunately, the next protection was a very long draw(the route traverses from the right through an arete onto a headwall). This meant that my fall was stopped by the rope going over a sharp jug and not the draw.
So, there I was in mid space with the rope over a sharp edge and looking in bad condition, having to decide whether it is better to be let down or to pull up. Who says sport climbing is less exciting than trad?
Gustav, who had only read of such events before, assured me that I do not need to go on the same diet as Carl K. He attributed the draw's failure to something called Cross Loading. I'm really not technically minded so it would be better if someone else tried to explain it.
There is a nice photo of Naureen on the route in the photo gallery. I fell from about a meter below where she is and the small feature on the lowest part of the arete is the feature that the rope got caught on.
All is good, though. 5 meters of rope, 1 draw and a slightly bruised rib were the only consequences of this rather dramatic event.


Image
Photo by Roc & Rope

Image
Naureen Goheer going for the second ascent of 'Butterfly', 27 at the God No Wall at Boven. Photo by: Andrew Pedley

What do you think?

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Gustav
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Flex
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:29 pm 
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I think Danny should contact Willem in order to sell him that rope - Willem could probably get a couple more years out of it!
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oOdball
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:22 pm 
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Question: How could the draw be cross-loaded over the hanger, when the gate that broke looks very much like the one that the rope passes through?

Maybe the problem was that the bent gate was clipped into the hanger. The 'top gate' of Mambas shouldn't easily flip and end up cross-loaded.

Glad you're alright Danny. Sounds like a fully hectic fall..

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nosmo
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:20 pm 
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o0dball wrote:
Question: How could the draw be cross-loaded over the hanger, when the gate that broke looks very much like the one that the rope passes through?


You're making no sense. Without owning any mambas, it looks to me that the gate that broke was the one clipped to the hangar/bolt. The other gate (the one that has a bent gate in it) would be the one where the rope runs through. You can clearly see on the actual straight gate where the hanger chowed into the gate.
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dannypinkas
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:21 pm 
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Real Name: Danny Pinkas
The gate that broke was the straight gate.

Mambas have both sides sewn onto the sling. Perhaps the fact that the straight gate was sewn meant that the rope dragged it up into a position where it was cross loaded when I fell. Apparently that is why it is unadvisable to tighten your straight gate onto the sling.

A technically minded person would be able to explain all of this a lot better. All I know is that I'm going to pay a little more attention to the lining of my draws from now on.
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nosmo
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:36 pm 
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Crossloading...
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oOdball
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm 
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Danny Pinkas wrote:
The gate that broke was the straight gate.


Oh. I see, you're holding up the straight gates of two different quickdraws in the picture. I looked at the unbroken one, recognized it as the straight gate and assumed the other gate was on the same sling.

Sorry nosmo, my bad.

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nosmo
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:08 am 
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No worries man
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Justin
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:12 am 
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Many years back at one of the Waterfront climbing comps a ropes sheath was cut when a bent gate biner turned 90 degrees.
The sheath was cut by the 'sharp' metal gap (behind the top pin of the gate). The climber was moving up through the overhang (+- 1m above the quickdraw) and then fell.

The sheath cut and then started bunching up against the gate which then 'bumped' itself over the gate, the biner righted itself and the core of the rope held the fall (the climber dropped quite a bit further than normal).

After that carabiners gates were manufactured without the two sharp edges.
Ironically this was the only carabiner on the wall that was not a Mamba!

Image

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Chalk
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:30 pm 
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Interesting pic, I think I know what might have happened, only because I have watched one of my draws pull a similar stunt.

Cobras, as Danny has said, have slings sewn to them. This prevents a conventional “cross load” because the sling will always be positioned at the long end of the biner.

Judging by the mark on the gate that was presumably made by the bolt, and the fact that the spine of the biner is not broken, what might have happened is the gate was effectively levered over the anchor point / bolt during the fall, inducing the broken gate.

I clipped a bolt from one side, climbed past and traversed above the anchor, twisting the biner so that the gate was held in the eye of the bolt (as opposed to the spine of the biner). If you were to fall at that point, with the gate being the weakest point of the biner, it would probably fail.

Add to the fact that Danny said the rope snagged over the arête, this could reduce the shock absorption factor of the rope, inducing a factor one fall (or close to) with a one meter drop.
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dannypinkas
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 3:55 pm 
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Real Name: Danny Pinkas
Thanks for all those photos, guys. Chalk, I think you called it pretty much as it happened, though I'm not so sure about that factor 1 fall.
The local agents have shown an interest in the incident and are taking the damaged draw overseas to DMM next week. I'll keep the forum posted on developments.
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Justin
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:14 pm 
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Have a look at this Safety Alert

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emile
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:46 pm 
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Interesting - thanks for the news Justin 8)

Just a question

( and I've not been getting a lot of sleep and have not given it much thought and I don't know the prices )

is this not a good argument for the ring type bolts as on some of the routes at 'Boven? The expansion mechanism can remain unchanged, and it seems this is the standard for the ARF - or are the Raumer bolts (as per the pic on the ARF page) strictly glue-in?

:afro: (It's the closest to \"The Big Bad Wolf\")
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nosmo
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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:01 am 
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You mean u-bolts? Two holes = 2 as much drilling, plus they're only glue-in.

Raumer bolts... check their website
http://www.raumerclimbing.com/eng/prodotti_mlista.asp?mcat=climbing&qi=4-0-0
P-type glue-ins
Image
I couldn't find the p-type bolts in the expansion flavour, besides for these
Image
which seem to be abseil anchors only (I don't know so much about the little wire gate on the hanger). You drill the hole, insert the bolt and hammer the pin in...hammer-in anchors, I suppose. Interesting, and expensive compared to regular expansion + hangers.


Last edited by nosmo on Thu May 22, 2008 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MarkM
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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:05 am 
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Hey Emile,

I would not fret over the type of bolt your clipping, glues-ins have there own problems that are associated with there placement process, which is easier to get wrong. As far as I'm aware the ARF in CT use the glue-ins due to the relatively corrosive environment (compared to inland crags), since they carry many advantages in such an environment. I really think this was an isolated incident and probably more the draws fault than the bolt, also Danny probably had it coming due to all the smart comments he's made over the years :lol:

WRT the safety alert, I think that's bull! The picture that they show has the hanger in an incorrect orientation, the point on which the draw makes contact with the hanger should be directly below the bolt, making the chances of the nose of the draw catching the bolt really slim. It's not rocket science and most of the hangers now days have an arrow which should point at the ground, which puts the hanger in the correct position.

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emile
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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:07 am 
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My mistake - you're right I confused the u bolts for the p bolts.
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Barbarossa
 Post subject: Re: Danny's big fall ...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:27 pm 
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Real Name: Otto Wipplinger
:?: For the brains: could the fall and broken gear be avoided through use of double rope technique? Sounds like a small traverse is involved.
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nosmo
 Post subject: Re: Danny's big fall ...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:14 am 
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Image
Picture from Emile...

How about these?
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zabullet
 Post subject: Re: Danny's big fall ...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:47 am 
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Sub-Question:

How do you guys think this would have played out if it had been a wiregate? Do you think it would have deformed outwards and not sheered?

za_bullet.
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Justin
 Post subject: Re: Danny's big fall ...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:51 am 
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With regards to Danny's biner i I reckon a wire gate would bend to a point and then perhaps break!?

Just spotted this on 8a.nu -
"A few months back our editor fell and reported that his lower carabiner broke in the fall. He was 10cm from smashing his head into the rocky ground. After careful investigation it became clear that he had clipped the bolt with the lower end of the carabiner and that it was this that broke, which is much more common. At first there was a suspicion of a "bad" carabiner but then it was discovered that the carabiner had got stuck in the bolt between the screw and the bolt hole (see picture for an extreme case).
If this happens the carabiner only holds for about ONE THIRD of the force (3.5KN instead of 10KN). A 4m fall(2m above the last clip) at 15 meters gives a fall factor of about 0.27 and a force of 5KN, which will cause the carabiner to break if it is stuck like shown here. In addition to the manufacturer testing, an 8a associate has tested this in his lab and the above is true for most type of carabiners, and not just the brand used by our editor. Take care out there!"

Image
Picture from http://www.8a.nu

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