I missed the MCSA talk last night, can anyone tell me what Andy's Presentation on a proposed solution for bolts was about?
Cheers,

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Climb ZA - Administrator

No I was not at the meeting...

But the real bolting solution is to slow down bolted development & to encourage trad climbing. This is the way forward.

I have sold my last hanger & am contemplating not making any more.

I will arrange for a more detailed meeting to be held for the climbers and will post something for everybody to read. Now I am a bit busy.

Derek, you know there is place for both bolting and trad routes. Currently you supply the cheapest hangers out there, we need cheap hangers. All my routes have Sky hangers on them. What made you want to stop selling them? Currently I can place one bolt for R20, it might go up to R30 if you quit making.

Maybe its because Sky hangers rust with alarming rapidity?

Na... Is because I can't stand what sport only climbers are doing to climbing. I don't want to be part of it any more. I've turned a corner In the areas that I care about I will be stripping my lines. A Kind of repentance. I stopped bolting more than a year ago... halting hanger production was the next step.


[quote]Maybe its because Sky hangers rust with alarming rapidity?

Cheap shot...why not give your self a name... you wimp. You are exactly the type of climber I don't want to see when I am climbing. FO

Hey Derek - Your hangers don't rust so when you strip them off your routes can you send them to me please?

DM: What did these \"Sport only climbers\" do to cause such a extreme reaction on your part?

Yo Derek,
Regarding stripping, some lines can't realistically be tradded by mortals, without insane run-outs and mashed copperheads etc. So why not strip the trad-able lines and leave the others? Just a thought, not really any of my business.

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One life, one body. Use them well.

Cheap shot, hardly considering the amount I spent on your hardware!!! My advice dont use Sky anywhere close to the sea, my routes didnt even last six months before rust was streaking down the rock! Have now had to fork out a whole lot more dosh to replace them all with Petzl which have a proven track record of longevity. Your stuff is however fine for inland development, as routes weve done inland all seem fine even after a few years.

Not a cheap shot Derek, just stating facts! Name witheld as Im not interested in a fight, but people should be told whats what. How are your routes at Morgans bay holding up by the way??

Derek, sounds like you are a little old and jaded and I suspect you have bolted far much, probably including (but not entirely) low quility lines - in which case you are right, you should not have bolted them. Try being more selective, thats the real problem. I bolt 1-3 lines a year max and they are generally considered instant classics. Too many new routers just the line beacause there's a gap there. By the way, I think your hangars and chains are great, it'd be a shame to stop making them.

Derek, sounds like you are a little old and jaded and I suspect you have bolted far much, probably including (but not entirely) low quility lines - in which case you are right, you should not have bolted them. Try being more selective, thats the real problem. I bolt 1-3 lines a year max and they are generally considered instant classics. Too many new routers just the line beacause there's a gap there. By the way, I think your hangars and chains are great, it'd be a shame to stop making them.

Hey Cheap Shot...thanks for the support. Haven't bolted that much at Morgans. There are only 8 sport lines. I have only bothered to climb 4 of them, all with Petzl & Vector hangers. these 4 sport lines at MB are up for the chop soon. They have rusted badly & have past their climb-by-date. Funny trad never reaches a climb-by-date. Trad routes are for ever!

Trad is just so much more fun... trad climbers are just so greatful to fine a good placements & reach a sweet tree to abseil off. There is no bitching about \"bolt placements, clipping, rust, top anchors, spinning bolts, single or double sleeve bolts, grades of stainless, glues\".....it goes on. There is so much bitching about in sport climbing.

I'm not that old..is 31 considered old? I have bolted a lot of lines. quite a bit more than a 100. Some of them are great some of them are a bit crap. Andrew, I would be suprised if you have been up 10 of them...that would be less than 10%. So it would be quite difficult to say wether they are quality or not. Some are - some are not...there are a few that are just BS. Most are at lower-mid grades. Only about 10% of routes opened are clasics...thus if you open 100 you may have 10 clasics...if you open 10 you may have one. I enjoy a line for what it is and recall the great parts, laughing off the crappier parts. We opened 34 trad lines this week end...the same as above applies. Try opening 34 sport lines...

I have a boat that is permantly in the water moored in a harbour.
It has a fair amount of stainless steel fittings on it which have been there for 40+ years (the age of the boat). These are made from marine grade stainless steel. They show absolutely no signs of corrosion or rust.
Surely hangers and bolts are made from the same grade of stainless steel. If not, they should be!

I have a boat that is permantly in the water moored in a harbour.
It has a fair amount of stainless steel fittings on it which have been there for 40+ years (the age of the boat). These are made from marine grade stainless steel. They show absolutely no signs of corrosion or rust.
Surely hangers and bolts are made from the same grade of stainless steel. If not, they should be!

Although I will miss sky hangers when I clip – I cant say that I disagree with Derek. It’s a bold step and one that will no doubt have an economic impact on us all, but if he is prepared to make a stand again the trash that wreck our climbing spots then I think he is a better climber than most of us who simply whinge about the state of our hangouts.

I visited the Superbowl area a few years back (not that there was one grade in the whole face that I could even try) and remember the feeling of a special presence about the place. I remember there was an old dry figtree log with dates from the late 1800 carved in it and pottery shards and old mill stones that had been carefully placed out of harms way. Wars had been fought in and around Boven and yet it was still hallowed ground. I was there last year only to see exactly what Derek has spoken of.

Its true – the more climbers we have, the more votes we will have to negotiate on issues and (hopefully) gear prices – but we are going to pay a price!

About stainless steel – I was trying to build a scuba diving torch and will say this much – its an animal all of its own! The harder it is and less inclined to rust, the more brittle it is, the softer and more malleable, the more rust… I eventually decided to leave it to those who know about the sh***!

Stainless is very tricky. Stainless on a boat may be a diffrent grade with properties that are suited to boats. Max forces on a boat components are diffrent to max forces of a climber falling. Higher grade SS will inhibit surface corrosion well, but will be harder, more brittle & not bend well.

Correction RE Morgan Bay. I have drilled a few routes in the last year. That is holes for removable bolts. Low visual impact, low cost to the bolter, no maintanance, no rust. This is a good option for routes with no protection close to the sea. Most folks don't have a set of removable bolts & thus won't be able to use them. BUT, are we bolting for others aproval and pleasure. or because it's what we want to do. Providing for the masses is not what climbing is about. Climb for your own pleasure.

nice one derek, good idea on the removable bolts. they work pretty well. don't chop your routes unless they are unsafe, it's just not cool that man.

I agree with Andrew above re only opening a sport climb if its worthwhile. Many people, and I include myself in this, get carried away when they have access to a drill. They just go bolt everything in sight and end up with maybe 10% quality rate as Derek says. I realise that it is much easier to find quality lines if you're climbing harder grades, but that still doesnt mean that real crap routes should be bolted just because they're a certain grade. Derek, there's definately a place for sport climbing, but like anything it should be done intelligently and in moderation. Eg. there's no ways the magalies kloofs could sustain the high numbers associated with sport climbing. I've come to the realisation that the majority of sport climbers out there are never gonna pick up a rack and go tradding, and no amount of arguing will persuade them otherwise. That leaves the remote and big walls empty for me, so I'm not complaining too much!

I think that both trad and sport have their place. There are so many sport routes to choose from that I dont see the point of converting trad routes to sport, if you are no longer challenged (or bored) with the sport routes you have to decide if you want to go climbing trad. At the same time I dont think it would be a good idea to reduce the number of sport routes becuase it will just create more pressure to convert trad to sport. To me trad climbing is about freedom and less frequently used lines, while sport climbing is about extra safety (perceived?) and pushing grades, both have their place and both are forms of climbing. As climbers we should consider the effect on our sport as a whole and not force one form of climbing over another. I think Hector is right but I think everything should be done intelligently and in moderation. Maybe Derek thinks some of his routes are a waste of time, maybe I'd like to climb them one day. Maybe I start trad climbing one day and there are no lines left, its all about balance