Hey guys.
How about coming at this thing from the other side. The peolpe who sell hangers and bolts could try to check who are buying bolts and those comcerned about where these bolts are placed can decide if anybody buying bolts should be given some assitance with the where and how's of the bolting game.

The Eastern Cape is small so it's easy to keep track of whats happening. But could some take a shot at how many guys there are out there who own a drill. There is about 7 drill owners around here, with Derek having more than one.

This is where I think the MCSA can be usefull get people involved where there is a structure and old guys who can put some of the history back into it. There, in my opinion is where the batle is lost. If you don't know what something is about how do you get to respect it.(not really my style advocating MCSA but thing have there uses)

As with most of the problems in our dear contry education is they key to the future. The people who know and still don't carer you can't do anything about them.

Garvin

yip judging from this picture of Kevin Jorgeson bouldering, I can see it doesn't take to much commitment just pure power:) Although looking at the picture on the home page I always did have my Suspicions about south african boulderers being... what's the right word... well... you know a real happy bunch.

hilton was, sort of, generalising? not many boulders strike fear into my heart even if i know i cannot pull the moves off. different when looking up at dynamite!

See mokganjetsi, there you go again implying that there more to trad. Not all trad stricks fear into me. Some of my longer harder routes have been quite calm and uneventfull. just a nice day in the hills.

Well I agree that certain areas should remain trad only, just as we have sport crags, otherwise it would eventually die out as a sport through over-bolting.
The rock up there is well suited to accepting gear and so there is no need for bolts. The point is though, Du Toits is an extremely wide range of mountains consisting of many kloofs and many walls, plenty of which have no trad climbs, and never will.
Lastly, we have plenty of short (25m-100m) sport routes in SA, but almost no true big wall sport routes.



Please, let's not become overly sensitive or pedantic here. There clearly is more involved where trad climbing is concerned, but it doesn't mean that one is better than the other. Eish.

mmmm ja eish! not implying "more" but "different". and generalising - bouldering is just not scary on average and trad is (for most people). what's the issue with that? each to his own and all that blah. and we are completely missing the point of this thread if we open this coffin - uh, discussion - again.

Aah gee garvinj...sure I have an ego. Many years on the Western Province and Springbok hang-gliding teams; many big hard rock and alpine first ascents; director of Allan Gray in my 30s - none of these things would have happened without spades of ego and tons of get-up-and-go. But I try to keep my ego in check to some degree. Over the years my psychometric tests have repeatedly thrown up two words for me - "visionary philosopher". So there you have it. Scratch around and you will find many more faults. But please keep them to yourself!

But, how about leaving my faults out of the equation and focusing on the general principle that I'm advocating?

Regarding my comments on commitment - confront reality old chap. I mentioned David's old route Celestial Journey. Nothing wildly hard for us these days, right? Well as you will know if you've done it, the Grey Face pitch has bouldery 6C moves with a ledge-fall about the same as this picture of Jorgeson. But then you'd go over the ledge and fall as far again. So you want to be physically sorted for 25 and mentally sorted for harder if you're going to lead the thing - as you'll know.

Let's not split hairs.

The point that I was making is this...
Trad is about power, endurance and commitment. And these things combine into something special in a pristine adventure environment. And a bolt ladder nearby changes all that. Should we stand mute and watch the great remaining trad areas get dumbed down? Do you want to be complicit in this act? If you can watch the start of the process unfolding you need to gaze into the future...

I don't think trad climbing will die out, at least not due to over bolting. But I was seriuose when I asked why cant we start to monitor who's bolting. Rather than way up pro's and con's. We seemingly can't get concensus, but those who believe in the all trad area's can do something. But I think it is as Derek said, when it comes to doing we changes our veiws very fast. If you love the hills unbolted it's up to you to keep it that way. Waiting for a bunch of disorganised, none conformist to step in line just isn't going to happen or do any good.

I also Like the Idea of trad only area, but here and now I'm telling you I'm not up for the work involve. I'd rather go Bouldering or even trad climbing and if there's nowhere left I'll climb the sport multi pitches.

Sorry I'm bowing out. It seems I'm upsetting the flow of this ride to nowhere. And I have to go make the beds, I'm picking up my inlaw's at 5.
Hilton, If you can solve this debate here I'll come to Cape Town and Buy you dinner at your choice of resturant.

Garvin

One of the most satisfying leads I did was a routes called Psycho on the Grit. I also climbed a great route a few weeks ago at Elsies called " Turn of the Tide" an ankle snapping 24 very similar in style to UK grit. Huge feeling of relief,euphoria and elation when you finally top out. Both would be reduced to obscurity if bolted.

I have to agree that Hilton is pretty visionary in fact every bit of advice he has ever given me is spot on.

Chances are , as usual, he is right. I reckon the newborn bolts will fall out before the first bolt free ascent though.

Read this in the climbing magazine.. I'm a hundred meters down so have moments of boredom ha ha..

“ Fear and dread are my life insurance.” -Erhard Loretan swiss - 3rd person to summit all 14 8000 meter peaks.



“Beware if you do not if experience fear in the mountains. Not to do so would mean one was devoid of feeling and no longer able to experience the supreme joy of knowing that one has mastered fear.” - Walter Bonatti -Italian alpinist.



“The moment of terror is the beginning of life.” - Mark Twight- American Alpinist.


“Fear makes us human. Without it, we are just robots. Our doubts, fears, and nerves make us fight and try harder in every aspect of life, and give meaning to those efforts. Climbing isn't a parallel life, the sensations and emotions you experience climbing absolutely help you deal with normal life problems.” - Josune Bereziartu- first woman to climb 5-15a



"and fear deepens friendship - as with soldiers in battle, shared struggle in epic conditions builds camaraderie not found elswhere."

I guess if there is a bolt ladder it takes away that fear, and even if I don't clip the bolts that option is still there..

Then I read the article about the "Snow cap disappearing on Kilimanjaro"

http://www.supersport.com/climbing/arti ... &id=321991

and I thought I wander if bolts should be our biggest concern? I guess it does all matter.. and we should stand up for what we believe in.

Hi Guys!

I wanted to stay out of this, but as an avid bolter and old trad climber maybe I should chirp up.

Most of what has been said makes some kind of sense, Table Mountain, Wolfberg, Tafelberg and Krakadouw wouldn't be the same with loads of bolts. I must also add that the few "bolts" that are there look really bad and out of place. But wouldn't it be amazing for the next generation to come along with a new "eye for a line" and put something up that takes the area to the next level, bolts or no bolts.

Where is this guy or girl and do old farts like us have any right what so ever! to throw ethics that suited us in our hay day into their way?

Chalk, friends and even the boots we wear, were all frowned upon when first introduced and now look at us, we are all using the stuff. Nails, pegs and wooden blocks have been smashed into cracks, defacing them forever, by the same old school people who are preaching to us now. All the talk of big balls and fear is really a sign of a huge ego trying to prove it's point and in so doing get even bigger and louder.

Then the word "pristine" comes into mind and the ease at which it is used. How many of the names that were used in the first posting, Tony, Charles, Bruce and even Hilton will fly half way around the world to climb their "pristine" piece of rock. Some of them even fly up to Blouberg for the weekend to climb their "pristine" piece of mountain or even have holiday huts in the Alps so they can quickly fly over to enjoy their piece of pristine rock or even scream out to Wolfberg for the day to do a "pristine" route. Maybe next time you are in the plane burning all that fuel trashing what was our pristine world think of the few bolts, and we might be able to call it quits. Let's not judge one another too harshly and enjoy the game we all so love, and try to EVOLVE with the rest of us. Remember judge and though shall be judged!

I believe New Born was a great step in the right direction, opened by probably the only one of us in any position to comment. Jeremy did it with a very clear conscience and added something to our world of rock climbing, without all the old bogged down crap that is being thrown at routes like his by the holier than though'.

If the route is a job well done and adds quality to the world of rock climbing then I'm all for it! Lets move on carefully and with respect.

Stuart Brown

I'm not used to being serious about anything, so this is making me feel a little awkward, but here is my 2 cents (ok maybe just 1 cent, but it is free).

I don't think the idea is to dis anyone, we don't want to call all sport climbers indiscriminate thrashers of rock and all tradies holier than thou Hippocrates. I think Hilton is very much aware of the damage that trad climbers cause, the point is we don't want to just carry on damaging the environment. Don't you think it is a bit like the 4X4 problem in the berg - hikers litter and that makes it perfectly fine to go trash the place with 4X4s. Bolts are not the end of the world when it is done right (safe, but not over bolted and only routes that are worth the effort and money). I think most people will agree to this in any case. Pegs are basically the same as bolts, just less safe. I don't particularly like them, in fact I rarely use them. I can understand that most of them were placed before friends were invented, but I don't like seeing ones right next to good nut placements. The two on Red Corner's stance (Upper Tonquani) are quite necessary and I do use them All I'm really saying is think twice before leaving something behind and just because we made mistakes in the past, it doesn't mean we can't stop making them again.

Thanks Jeremy. Very Kind.

Stuart you're a mate and I'm glad you're speaking up. "Cognitive dissonance" comes to mind when I read your words - but heck, you're a senior climber and this debate needs the senior climbers. Some responses and comments to you:

1. the few bolts at TM, Wolfberg etc look really bad and out of place
But
a next generation new line with bolts would be amazing.
Care to explain that a little?

2. so you're saying that over a certain age we must stop playing a role in establishing ethics? Roll-on Lord of the Flies. Viva Julius Malema viva. Heck, youngsters don't need parental guidance... So a world without ethics. Is this really what you feel? (Doesn't quite fit with your carbon emissions environmental impact line, does it?)

3. chalk, Friends, boots, all frowned upon...
same old school people who are preaching to us now...
I was an early adopter of all that gear and didn't encounter the nonsense you speak of. Maybe want to re-think this story?

4. Stuart you have a monumental ego and that's just fine. Jeremy has a big ego and that's great. Same for Obama, Messner, Dawkins. Really does it matter? Great guys can have big egos. Don't worry about ego battles. They're irrelevant. And they'll eat you alive. Worry about issues.

5. You have a big go at me and my mates for travelling. I won't go down the road of how you actively promote international tourism to your tourist destination. Also like me, you're jealous of the ones with alpine chalets. However, I will point out that there are some slight holes in your logic here. Firstly, I don't control anyone else. Then, because I name some of my buddies does that make them signatories to what I've said and therefore you should have a go at them?

Stuart you judge me very harshly, even though you state that it's what we should not do. With respect to Stuart Brown, I'll follow your advice. I agree with you that evolution is right. Presumably you think that evolution should be thought-through and talked about, or don't you? Or is "evolution" following your lead (and whoever the "rest of us" is)?

I won't comment on your "bogged down" stuff. I thought that wasn't me. I'm a happy guy. I like this place and am not about to leave anytime soon.

You do write some stuff that I agree with - your last two words.

How about focussing on the issue I raise? Minimal-bolts-only-where-essential-in-trad-areas. Or is that asking too much of people who want to get their rocks off by having a go at the flag-bearer.

I look forward to seeing you next week in your excellent sport climbing area and cranking some of your routes. Maybe we can have a few beers and argue like cat and dog. As long as we can stay mates, okay?

Is it me or are things getting personal? Let's not follow the example set by our poilitical 'leaders' by attacking the man, and rather focus on the issues.
It seems we have a case of opposing views that might never be compatible, though maybe a compromise can be reached somewhere? Is there room for compromise?

Yes we are being very harsh with one another, yes we should find a middle way, but I don't like it when people wag fingers and forget how personal they sound. Just as hard as I went off at Hilton, so did he go off at others.

The explanation had its roots in early-days ignorance*. This man wanted to know what we might do about it. Of far greater concern to me is the enlightened desecration* that is gathering momentum. Some of the men who are despoiling* the likes of the pristine Yellowwood Amphitheatre are my friends and I treasure their friendship. They are good men, but misguided*. They are the George W. Bushes* of climbing. Blundering* forward for short-term gratification* without thought of long-term consequences. These strong virile young men are having fun. They are good climbers. But not good enough*. They need to man-up* and climb these walls as they should be climbed, and not leave a via ferrata* that steals the value of these places, from all climbers, for all time.

*ignorance - are we not as ignorant as we were then? or are we smart now, what will we think of this statement in 10 - 20 years time.
*desecration - some bolts on Wolfberg and a great bolted line on Yellow Wood?
*despoiling - once again one line of bolts on a great line?
*misguided - Jeremy, misguided???
*George W. Bush - wow, goes along with some other interesting comparisons, Malema? Maybe a bit off the topic or did Jeremy blast his way up the route or get tax payers to pay for the bolts?
*not good enough - he is one of the best we have and holding such talent back isn't going to create anyone good enough.
*man-up - this is the ego I'm on about, man-up, big balls, wankers club, cock and bull, whisky......?
*via ferrata - how many ascents has the route had?

I found it quite an attack and very much how one person sees it and I responded because it saddens me to see so much judgement. Some of the words above are not nice, just like the ones I used. Some very good comments have been put forward, Gustav, Greg... and I see things heading towards a little more acceptance. Ethics change every year. All within reason.

All the fantastic trad lines were gobbled up long ago, the next generation will seek, and as role models we shouldn't be too harsh in judging their way of expressing their passion.

Yes we shouldn't mess the place up and continue to advance within reason. Who am I to say no bolting on Wolfberg, TM or Tafelberg? It might be the way I would like it to stay, but then again who am I ?

A cold beer sounds great Hilton. We are on the same page, just seeing the message a bit differently.

I've tried to stay out of this discussion as it is becoming personal, and unfortunately the tired old trad vs sport rant is becoming the focus. I really want to applaud Hilton for his effort to express a sentiment that many of us share. It is not about the bolts per se, but rather that continual, insidious, eroding of that sense of wilderness. Yes, there are roads and huts etc. but when we get onto those "untouched" walls, and our backs are turned towards the developments, it does feel a little like a wild place. A line of bolts in some of these places is simply out of place, and the argument of whether it can be climbed with, or without, bolts is irrelevant. Maybe some pieces of rock should simply be left unclimbed?
As has been said many times already, bolts in the appropriate place are great. I love sport climbing. But every now and then I want to be able to get away from it and not see direct human interference on the piece of rock I am climbing. The rain will wash my chalk away and allow the following climber the same, exploratory, experience.
Not everyone shares this broader philosophical approach to wilderness and the outdoors but let's be carefull with the resource that we treasure so much!
Richard. (another old fart)

Very well said Richard. I can Identify 100% with what you have said. To the point and without some of the agression in the last paragraph of the first entry. Sorry Hilton, you started well but kind of boiled over at the end.

How does Yellowwood compare with say Milner? Milner is further away (about as pristine as they come) and has almost only bolts? And we love the place! Do we, the climbers allow further development of Yellowwood? New Born seems to be a good few notches above the lines at Wolfberg with bolts. The rock is also very different, Wolfberg is a trad climber heaven, no matter where you are on the cliff.

Maybe all us old guys should go up to Wolfberg and chop those bolts (pieces of rusted angle iron with loads of tat on them)?

Haven't the Brits got clear no go areas? I think it might be time to clear up these here and stick to it. TM, Wolfberg, Tafelberg, Krakadouw. Then it is clear where the youth can push their limits. I think Yellowwood should be one of those.

Can someone book a date and drag me out of here to do some trad, haven't been to Krakadouw yet. I can't leave without that one.

Where in the Freestate is this much talked about MilnerTon place?

_________________
Gustav
Roc 'n Rope Adventures
Waterval Boven
013 257 0363
rocrope dot com

Okay Stuart...
There's lots of nonsense and false attribution in your words but I'll let it go...
My buddies warned me what I would be letting myself in for...

Before stepping this debate up a level I would like to make some important points:

1. This is not about sport vs trad. In general sport routes are great. There are far more tired trad routes than sport routes.
2. This is not about multi-pitch sport. The routes at the Big M are just astounding. There are some good multi-pitch sport routes on Paarl Rock and at Montagu. And these routes have high value.
3. This is not about sport being better than trad or vice versa. Sport, trad, alpinism, ski-mountaineering, hiking, kloofing, you name it - they're all first class.
4. This is not about low-level issues of personalities, toughness, machoness, bravery, stupidity, ego etc.
5. This is not about Newborn.
6. This is not about Jeremy.
7. This is not about Yellowwood Amphitheatre.
8. This is about high-level issues of preservation, vision, care, sanctity and violation.
9. This is about re-straining the encroachment of man's damage in places that we feel are worthy of such restraint.
10. This is about engaging and discussing with the community involved.
11. This debate recognises that the vast majority of internet users would be young and sport-climbing oriented and that trad climbers would be seriously under-represented.
12. This is about recognising that there is no possible resolution, ever, until their are no climbers or there is no climbing; but it is about stemming the tide because some trad purity is a worthy goal.
13. This is not about an uncompromising position. This position compromises to the judicious occassional use of bolts in trad areas.
14. This position supports the full use of bolts to make sport routes in what are clearly appropriate sport areas, both existing and future ones.
15. This position recognises that the UK has strong ethics debates and leads the world in the preservation of natural climbing and that Europe has little interest in ethics and leads in bolting development - but that we need to think and make sensible decisions before we regret not making decisions at all.
16. Its good to hear the younger climbers but most importantly we need to hear the senior climbers. The senior climbers should have a bigger picture, more experience and a longer term view.
17. The grade of sport route or trad route that a climber gets up does not necessarily make his/her view more or less worthy.
18. The actions of climbers in the past does not brand them for all time. We're in the early days and learning our way along.
19. This debate is about bolting full sport routes in trad climbing areas.
20 This debate is about building consensus rather than taking action first. No running out and chopping bolts before using the grey matter. No individual actions that cause deep dissent. We're participating in a happy game.

Now that came across way better Hilton...

I for one would like pristeen areas not to be bolted, this is my opinion, I do not think that I have the right to attach a permanent fixture to the rock; as although it may be mine it also belongs to everyone else, climbers and non climbers. It also belongs to my children and their children.

I know that there are others who do not feel this way, who feel that bolts do in no way comprimise an area and are proberbly baffeled about the way I feel. This has nothing to do with ethics as Hilton puts it but down to how we feel. So this debate will go in circles forever.

I, however, cannot come up with a solution. Hilton, to leave this up to individual ethics will not get you your desired result, as ethics are purely based on circumstances at the time.

Do you have any ideas or suggestions that could be realistically implemented and controled? Without a workable solution the debate becomes an arguement which becomes a fight and nothing is solved.

_________________
Fat men are harder to kidnap

Save the whales! okay, now that we all have agreement on one point......

i'm not expecting full concensus on this ever, BUT imho the value of this debate lies in making people think about something and view it in a different light.
maybe the day will come when some sot beams up to tafelberg and bolts a full line with his hydro-powered pocket sized drill, using the latest nano-magnetised-chameleonskin bolts that nobody will ever see.
but until such time, bolts are R5 sized, shiny and not that easy to ignore.
i do not see a perfect solution or a way to police it (rape & murder is actually illegal in SA but that does not stop some), but at least if there is some consensus on absolute no-bolt areas chances are that they will remain "clean"
and frowning on grey areas (yellow wood?) could at least keep reckless bolting in check, somehow ensuring that only killer lines with no natural pro gets bolted....? i hope.

How about this as a workable solution:
If you want to bolt a new route at an established sport crag (Boven, Oudtshoorn, Swinburne, Montagu etc) then go for it (obviously after getting the necessary landowner approvals and all).

If you want to bolt a new full sport route in an exclusively trad are (the kloofs, Wolfberg, Wilge, TM etc) then forget about it.

If you want to bolt a new full sport route in a predominantly trad area then ask the guys who climb trad there regularly what they think about it. Post it on the forum. Ask around. It won’t be too hard. The number of people bolting such routes are probably less than 5 in the whole country, and it seems like the contentious areas are pretty limited as well. After getting a few relevant opinions make up your own mind. If the regulars feel strongly about it, they will convince you not to bolt. If you can convince them then no problem. If no one gets convinced and the regulars feel you’ve acted like a doos then expect your route to get chopped or at least to get a lot of flak.

This should work out in most cases, no?

To be Devils advocate

If there is no official rules in place, you cannot stop me from bolting a line on say Wolfberg, your opinion won't matter and who says I am even a member of this forum to get consenses. If it is not illegal you have no right to stop me, chopping my route because it interfers with your opinion is unethical because to do so would interfer with my enjoyment. Herewith lies the problem. Consenses gained here only applies to people you are here and not to everyone. Rules give one a leg to stand on, but only if they are enforced, that is the problem with our society as Mok pointed out with his rape analogy. Without the proper enforcement the rules are meaningless. Hectors comments make complete sense to me but that is because I agree with them. What about those who do not agree?

_________________
Fat men are harder to kidnap

Hector Nicely done - a lawyer friend of mine told me once "a good deal is one that no one likes" (i.e. both parties make an uncomfortable sacrifice).

Two comments

1) If there were sport lines next to awesome trad lines (at mixed route venues... I have only been to sport crags) I would have a serious look at getting into trad to climb that line.
2) Furthermore, if trad and sport venues are kept completely separate, it is possible that the trad community shrinks, gets forgotten about and sport climbers move in to bolt because the ethics have dissappeared - so nicely controlled sharing may mean the survival of trad areas

Hilton, we also have to be realistic though - you say it is not about Multipitch Sport, but it is. The "Place That Shall Not Be Named" is off limits to almost everyone but a few, while Montagu and Paarl only have 4-5 pitch routes, ie. there is still no true big wall sport climbing in the Western Cape. So if we are to see a decent multi-pitch sport route it would have to be located somewhere near the large kloofs.

Though it seems we all do agree that there are several well established trad-only areas that should remain as such, and anyone attempting to bolt there, will not be consulted but simply have their route chopped.
If done properly, any 'pristine area' will remain as such whether bolts are placed or not.

I have got to agree with Mark. Anyone visting Yellowwood aiming to climb Newborn will not be able to ignore the amazing cracks alongside them and could well inspire one to try one of the traditional routes on the wall.

Hey Hilton
You raise a very valid dilemma. I am going to paint my opinion with a very broad brush here, if I may. And Snort will tell me that I write essay's...

"Progress", for lack of a better word, will dictate that the modern climbers will
- a: demand more routes
- b: demand access to the sectors previously off-limits without bolts

The issue is not so much bolting as "how much" and where. And I guess that this is where it gets a little complicated for what is an acceptable risk to myself, may be over-bolted to the next. To take a step back (with relevance to me and this post) I got a lot of flak for my letter to the then SA Mountain Mag wrt Retro Bolting - read WEIGHTING THE DICE here - but my opinion is unwavering in this regard. Retro Bolting is sacrilegious. Now to take a step forward I was heavily involved with the recent new-routing in Yellowood as my friends developed the routes. However I made it clear that the area has trad roots, and should be respected as such. The result was that they placed 6 bolts in 9 pitches, and opened 1 and a half routes of clean, sustained climbing up to 7a+. You can read their account Your Mother's Face - if you look at the slideshow it will be apparent that this is in no way a bolt fest, and compitence is a good idea.

As an aside I logged lots of airtime not far from Yellowood when a ledge disintegrated under me, very high up on "North West Direct". I was about to set up a belay, was run out due to blank rock, and the entire section of "blank" rock sheered. Had there been a bolt (or two) in there I'd be dead - as it was I spent a while in hospital, but that's another matter - so bolts do NOT solve everything.

I do think, however, that we are approaching the time where the "two extremes" - i.e. Trad and Sport - will stand aside and welcome in the middle ground, a mixed crag. The nature of South African rock (remember this is a broad brush) is often not conducive to pure lines in bigger settings. The lines that offer all-natural gear wander all over the place where a bolt or three might straighten out the line. Likewise a fully bolted route on easy terrain will be stupid and out of place as it inherently follows the weakest lines - which wander and accept natural gear. The issue, then, boils down to the protagonists...and, more contentious, is the elitist views the likes of you and I would like to see mandated - yes I love MilnerTon (in the free state), but no I don't think it acceptable to bolt Tefelberg.

Who am I to dictate this is, I think, part of your musings? Some form of co-rum is sadly unlikely.

I, for one, would love to see more people venturing into the hills and learning a new craft - if a mixed crag helps in that way, it might not be all bad? As it turns out, Yellowood seems to be a natural testing ground for this co-existence thing...

In closing I do think that the natural environment will ultimately control things. For eg: Dream Street Rose was retro-bolted but it neither gained any popularity, nor did Elsies become a sport crag. Contrarily, Lower Silvermine has become, arguably, the busiest sport crag in the Cape, and a training ground for new climbers. I doubt any traddies are losing sleep over it. Likewise A Private Universe while having many more than "Just stance anchors" has not seen the masses establishing more lines on the wall - in fact the only attempts have been by tradders. In the case of Wolfberg, nobody tradded at Sandrift anymore, we all go to Wolfberg to trad in the cracks - at least now climbers are going to the area and MAY be curious enough to trad.

In reality I think that the best form of defense is always attack. It's a mantra which has gotten me in deeper than I'd like on occasion, but it has merit. If more people knew what is possible, has been done and hence can be done "cleanly" they will respect it more and perhaps even contribute. Awareness is a key factor - show me where the cool, glossy, guide book is to these great mountain routes, the Exposure's, NW Frontal's etc. There are 9 routes on Yellowood, and more to the South...how do we promote this if it seems like you need to know secret handshakes to be included? Open our only mag and brows the local sites, the coverage is sport and bouldering...

For me the question is not "how do we stop the encroaching bolts" - for that is a fruitless battle - but rather how do "we" promote the alternative discipline, so that a greater number of active participants might progress the trad genre. Ploughing time and effort, IMO, will lead to far greater (and way more amicable) results

<As an addendum there is a lot of speculation from non-practitioners on how "scary" and or bold/"ballsy" trad is. For a LARGE part, this is bullsh1t. Perhaps it is scary to the newbie but, like most things, practice makes perfect and wrt trad breads familiarity and confidence. >

21. And if you discover a new area, take some more experienced climbing friends along that you can trust (else they take leave from work and steal all the good lines during a mid-week break! ) and form an opinion on how much can be climbed trad, before you go splattering bolts into virgin territory and 'declare' it a sport area on grounds of it already having a bunch of bolted lines...

Soon we can publish a little black book to be sold with every Hilti purchase?

_________________
Gustav
Roc 'n Rope Adventures
Waterval Boven
013 257 0363
rocrope dot com

This argument over Yellowood has gone on for a long time. Hard core traddies want to preserve their playground, bolt lovers are lured by sweeping faces of stone. Its never gonna be fully resolved.

Ive seen some faces and lines in that area that would make incredible sport routes, without ever crossing a single crack. In addition We've tried pushing up a trad line that hit a 12-15m section of sealed rock. A line of thin edges twisting tantalisingly upward, but no pro in sight for a long way. What to, what to do?.....

I really think it would be a great pity to simply ignore those lines, there are some great routes up there awaiting development. As far as Im concerned the precedence has already been set with Newborn. Even one of the staunchest defenders of trad at Yellowood recently bolted stances on a potential trad line. How is that helping to keep it clean and pristine??

Adding bolts in an area like Yellowood will certainly change the character, but if the line is chosen well, they can add a new challenge and open passages of even greater purity than can be envisioned and realised by trad alone. Definitely any bolting there should be done with the utmost discretion and sensitivity toward trad potential, but it should also happen. Du Toits Kloof has so much to offer, it would be great to see the valley become a 'go to' destination again.

Hilton, learn from Hellfire; trad and sport can defintely live side by side with some forethought and planning - and dont worry too much, there is one rather large hill between the car and the top, something that will keep most would be bolters safely grounded in apathy!

This is almost guaranteed!