Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

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Stu
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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by Stu »

XMod wrote:Well there seems to be some vague convergence of ideas here, sort of.

Hilton may I propose that if a trad area becomes designated purely as such (ie no sport) that it be kept completely bolt free. No abseil chains, no trapibolshit, no bolts whatsoever (or any form of rock alteration for that matter!). If you want the area kept as pristine as possible then there are no half measures. You cannot condone bolting in one form but ban it another. That would just be hypocrisy and would defeat the very aims you are trying to achieve. Either take on Nature in her raw state and leave her as such, or embrace modern development in all its forms.
Come on XMod aren't you just being overly combative now. There is a huge difference between 200 bolts heading straight up a wall, and a well camouflaged stance or abseil point...
One will almost never be seen, while the other will more than likely always attract the eye, and ruin the picture of a pristine environment.
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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by XMod »

-X-
Last edited by XMod on Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by Hilton »

XMod/Greg:
enough old chap.
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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by Dark Horse »

Shew Xmod I'd hate to meet you in a Dark alley.. you sound like one angry dude..

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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by LCD »

Ok, we've heard from the "Elitist Traddies", the Sport climbers, the boulderers and even the armchair wanabee whatevers.
How about us top ropers?. I am not a "Trad" climber or a "Sports" climber, I am a top rope purist.
My balls are peanut sized when it comes to leading (but thankfully that topic was dropped about 10 pages ago).
In other words I am the LCD (lowest common denominator) referred to above.
I have top roped in Du toits, silvermine, cederberg, the mine, klein witnerhoek, montague,Toverkop, TM, blah blah.
They are all fun in their own way, and they all seem to have their own evolving set of ethics to keep them fun.
I think the title of this thread, when it started, was "Bad things happen when good men do nothing". (sorry for quoting, that was also dissed a few pages back)
Hilton doesn't seem to be advocating "ethics police" (he's one of the biggest anarchists out there). Yes, everyone breaks the rules, but they tend not to publish the fact on some "hot flash" web page when they do so IF THEY KNOW THAT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE IS UNACCEPTABLE .
Hilton has also repeated that this is not about sport vs trad or chopping Newborn. Newborn is now part of the history of Yellow Wood. Sean wasn't aware of any consensus concerning bolts there, although i believe Jeremy "was a bit uneasy" about the route 10 years ago. I would love to do it if someone will give me a top rope and a set of jumars.
It is about CONSENSUS, or at least making people aware that at his point in time, most people don't really want things like "names and biographies painted on rocks" etc.
Most people tend to be subtle when they are breaking the "RULES". Yes I pull on every piece of gear on my way up, but I have fun and don't claim anything other than the fact that I am a crap climber .
I thought that sport/bolted climbing would evolve into multi pitch run out routes as a natural extension to the UPPER levels of climbing that i could admire from my armchair. Jeremy seems to be trying to find out what is presently acceptable, which is, I believe, the point of this topic.
For example: I now know to stand downwind from Guy when smoking before i get the "butt shoved up my crack". (Honestly, I've always carried my butts out, and your mates too)
From this it appears that there is a place for the SCORN whatever. It keeps things real without needing promulgated RULES and will change over time. (Riding an ice-cream cart along Carrols ledge while my mates and I are crawling along it is a form of scorn we can do without.)
No, I don't have any hard opinions on "pristine non bolted" areas. I do love them though, even if I spend more time at Muizenberg and sivermine than "earning my turns" slogging up to do country routes. Exposure in F major certainly stands out more than Sterling Silver in my mind, I'm just too lazy to get out there much.
Hilton seems to be encouraging solutions, I really like the idea of removable bolts, finger holes are much more user friendly to top rope on than bolts. (Hang on, didn't Microbe get scorned for doing that 15 years ago at Paarl Rocks?)
Lets get grey here. Don't see why TRAPIBO couldn't work, it does/will happen anyway. (Not sure if I got the acronym right but buggered if I'm paging back 20 pages to check)
So, Hilton, if you manage to get a consensus on acceptability, great, then i can be subtle when i break the rules and avoid the scorn.
This is my first web post/read as I am stuck at home bored out of my mind at the moment.
"Even if you top rope forever, it still beats golf"

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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by nicolaasdekker »

Hi,

Excuse me if I say something that has been thrashed out already.
I am an avid outdoors person, I camp, hike, trail-run, orienteer, adventure race, and now I climb. My father solo climbed in the 70's making for heated debate when it comes to the ethics of bolting... I find myself defending the position of sport climbers, mainly because it is all I can afford at this time (barely). However, as lovers of nature who worry about the preservation of trails and indigenous plant life surely the permanent altering of a rock face with a power tool goes against the very core what we are doing out there? It most certainly goes against the common mountain ethics of only leaving ones foot prints and taking only ones memories when you leave. How can we complain about less permanent damage like litter and the erosion of walk in pathways, due to overcrowding of crags, when there are scores of holes drilled into the rock face, holes that will still be there long after the bolts themselves have corroded away.

Nic
‎"Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure, life is either a daring adventure or nothing" - Helen Keller
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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by justin »

Not wanting to stir up a hornets nest, give this report a read Dozens of Bolts Added to Compressor Route

In an interview with Redbull.com (translated by Google) on November 17, 2009—the day before he departed for Argentina—Lama compared the ethics of today with Maestri's: "Cesare Maestri", who made the first ascent in 1970, left an entire highway of bolts and pitons in the mountain's south-east face, which has nothing to do with today's climbing ethics... Back in the days of old school mountaineering only conquering the peak was important—not so much how this goal was reached." Lama added that he planned to make the first free ascent of the Compressor Route and return home without leaving any noticeable mark on the iconic peak. He stated that it was "not in our interest to leave any traces."
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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by jgb »

hows this for a take on trad vs sport: sporty is easy, trad is hard. Bottem line!!! How can you compare:15 draws, 5 sec clip to bomber bolt with: double nut set, 10 cams ,10 hexes, slings and god knows what else, taking minutes to figure out right placement etc etc. Not rocket science hey. (Oh ja those guys who say they climb the same grade trad and sport are lying/kidding themselves, yeah right whatever) Maybe the answer lies in there being more 'easy" trad lines. I am past my prime, can only climb max 4/5 times a month (on a good month). There is no way i'm gana climb 22+ on that time. (Hey I used to). If you go to the w. cracks there's a 14 trad, a 15, and then unless you can 20+ it thats it for you. Nothing to do with balls! But put some bolts in and i'll give it a go. Likewise yellowwoood, i can't get up 22 trad its to hard on my time, but put some bolts in and its alot easier and i'll give it ago. So maybe we need some more F2 climbs then we can all climb, seems all anyone wants to do these days is open the harest routes they can, we need more easy trad lines!! Why should yellowwoood be reserved for the select few that can climb trad at high grades? I believe trad is the way! Only people who have never led a good trad route could try to argue. But i don't hav the time to climb at that level anymore and if i hear there's a bolted line at yellowwood that makes it possible for me to be part of the fun then I'm in.
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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by SNORT »

Lama 19 years old with all the experience and wisdom in the world has got sucked into the world of sponsorship. Like the Germans at Yellowwood he has had to play the fiddle. I said it a few months ago - in essence sponsorship poisons everything in climbing.

http://snort-charlesedelstein.blogspot. ... rship.html
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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by nicolaasdekker »

SNORT wrote:- in essence sponsorship poisons everything in climbing.
Hi Snort,

I think this concept is very interesting, I am going to open a new thread for this, would you mind elucidating this idea a bit more?

Nic
‎"Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure, life is either a daring adventure or nothing" - Helen Keller
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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by SNORT »

The principle is simple. It's pimp and prostitute really. Young talented and keen guy wants to climb and climb some more. He/she is head hunted by deep pocket company that wants some sort of grand exposure. This entails getting very sexy film footage of a new or existing famous climbing project usually in an exotic location. And there in lies the rub. To get the redbull helmet requires film footage from above and this requires an enormous amount of logistical setup and of course drills are used.

Making even a low budget climbing movie in a remote alpine location probably costs about $500 000.

You can't blame the talented 19 year old Lama. He just hit the jack pot. And he does not realize that he is merely prostituting himself and destroying his character in the process.

Like anything, ones character is built on your upbringing and learning, followed by apprenticeship and then mentoring and finally experience which in climbing takes more than 10 years. No 19 year old can possibly be "complete" as a climber or a person. They simply have not been around the block and are barely out of first base at that age. So this dude Lama has been suckered into selling his soul to the devil of commercialism.

I have elaborated my experiences with sponsored climbers in my blog. See link above.
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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by Marshall1 »

At 19 he is offered free gear, money & a good time(climbing)....please pimp me to commercialism! I'm a free gear, money & good time slut

Its not like he built a railroad through a mountain to make the movie
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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by SNORT »

Marshall1 - it is all relative.

Ethics relate to accepted practices at a point in time in a particular context. Adhering to these standards is what one's character is all about. It is simple fraud if you spray to your audience and in particular to the climbing community that you are embarking on an ethical ascent of a route and, in fact, that intend upping the ante in terms of the ethical standards used. The opposite has happened here.

Lama in an email to the Alpinist said that he planned to make the first free ascent of the Compressor Route and return home without leaving any noticeable mark on the iconic peak. He stated that it was "not in our interest to leave any traces."

Garibotti says: "It is not the legality of the bolts they placed that is at stake here. The Park does not regulate bolting, much in the same way that Yosemite National Park does not. Legally I could place hundreds of bolts on the Nose—as long as I did it by hand—without any legal consequences, but that does not make it OK within the community. Not adding bolts to existing routes, especially historic routes, is one of the best known unwritten rules of climbing."

andy kirkpatrick said:

Guess this is the aftertaste of sucking satan's cock (kind of red bull flavoured?) Money talks - bullshit walks - and shit gets left behind.

Lets not be too hard on the lad though, as I think 99% of climbers, offered fame and fortune, a free trip and no doupt a big boost to their bank account would probably do the same. It's what he/they do about it that counts now.


andy
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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by Marshall1 »

"Ethics relate to accepted practices at a point in time in a particular context. Adhering to these standards is what one's character is all about."

True & false - it is all relative.


breaking accepted practices & standards is what one's character is all about
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Re: Bad Things Happen When Good Men Do Nothing

Post by SNORT »

breaking accepted practices & standards is what one's character is all about
Indeed. But your character can be built or broken down depending on whether you set the standard higher or lower than the accepted practice at the time and this assumes you are honest about your motives and achievements.

This was not clearly not the case in the latest debacle.
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