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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:02 pm 
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Last edited by Hilton on Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:39 pm 
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Posts: 723
Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Hilton, bleat, bleat does not equate to constructive. It's not even entertaining any more.

I want to see the oubaalies from the golden era of SA climbing show by their actions what really matters. Fact is it does not really matter enough for any action to be taken.

The truth is often a miserable pain in the arse.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:44 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
If anyone wants to have any idea what consumerism - even in Africa - does to really cool places then take a visit to Spitzkoppe. I spent 2 hours there on my last trip, literally scooping up human shit and toilet paper and burning it!!!!

WTF!!!!!!

As long as I live and can walk, this is not gonna happen to Yellowwood or Blouberg...


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:47 pm 
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Posts: 156
Location: Cape Town (mostly :) )
@SNORT:
1 – “Existing Ethics” showed a tolerance to bolts in YW at the time. I cannot comment on whether they did or did not climb an existing route – I was not there. I can confirm that Armagedon and Prime Time were suggested.
2 – I cannot address the shit at the base because, again, I did not shit there.
3 – I do no such thing! (but you might have read that).
4 – Put my statement into context – it really is not that big of a jump
5 – You are hypocritical because by your standards YOU are permitted to place / chop bolts where YOU see fit, but others are not afforded that luxury.
6 – Again, name dropping is irrelevant here. What IS relevant is that you justified bolts in the first place (even admit erring on a few). Afford your contemporaries the same latitude as you afford yourself.

Beside D.O.T you (do I assume correctly?) placed bolts retrospectively! Why? So that the consumerist masses might enjoy your handywork? Again, apply your rules with uniformity…

“You are happy to remove all those bolts if anyone is prepared to climb without…”
Am I to read into this that it is acceptable to open a route using ones own style / ethics as long as you are open to it being chopped if someone else can improve the style?
That’s not really sustainable now is it!

From the start I have stated – on more than one occasion – that my interest in the topic is more general…sustainability / viability of mix crags. How to determine the grey area – what is good for one is not necessarily good for someone else. What I have learned is that there are rules…and then there are rules.
If you break your own rules, that’s cool…just don’t break someone else’s.

In this case, its been a waste of time, as between you custodians, you have not presented a viable nor sustainable solution. And, I would caution, this type of thing is only going to happen again…and again

@ Hilton. I refer to my above paragraph, and link it to your post. You can justify a rap line, and Newborn even – because they suite you. I am interested in how you plan to apply that to the broader community. I’ve asked this before, I do not expect an answer anymore. The involved ppl would rather flog a dead horse than find a workable solution. (personally I think we should chop all the bolts, but that is me)
@Wayne73 yes, 8mm expansion bolts. I merely point out that they are not unsafe just because they are 8mm.
@SNORT – what time do I have to get up Thursday?? (I’m tired already ☺ )


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:31 am 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
When I placed the bolts on Blouberg more than 5 years ago, I could not evisage any damage from consumerism. To date, not one of those routes have seen an ascent without me being present and Dog Day In Heavan has been around for 14 years!

Hector Pringle had a go at one of them last year but it was wet.

If those bolts do start causing damage from consumerism then I shall remove them.

Shit at the base of the crag is pathognomic of consumerism and the attraction of the LCD! (lowest common denominator)

Spitzkoppe, used to be a wild and beautiful place but has shit all over the place concentrated at the bolted short routes and that's because of the bolts there! And I cannot for one minute accept any dispute on that.

I have placed bolts at Spitzkoppe too and I shall remove them when next there! It was wrong and a mistake. I admit to it and have learned from it. That does not make me a hypocrite as you keep alluding to.

You, on the other hand keep defending the indefensible including 8mm bolts. Kinda weird. You are the hypocrite in so doing as you clearly state you don't agree with bolting and would be happy to have em all out.

Take a stand Tristan. You sound like our main politician that uses his
Quote:
culture
to defend his philandering.

Many bolts have been placed on TM in the past and we have learned the damage they cause, hence they are banned.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:38 am 
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Tristan, so you say "personally I think we should chop all the bolts, but that is me". So what are you actually doing or going to do? Chop Newborn? Good luck! Me- I've put in the hard yards of personally checking and I've started moving gear up there to chop bolts on Fighting Gravity. Its going to be hellish difficult.

When is the braai you're hosting?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:32 am 
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I thought its about time to look at this topic as the same guys were in Boven where they were also not really intent on climbing established classics, rather leaving a trail of new routes. Fortunatley they found very few gaps! They started bolting almost immediately, in a rather rushed fashion. I am sceptical at the motivation for this, opening new lines before climbing the classics..I mean..who does that? The one route they bolted (Burning Spear) has some double bolts where the first was a screw-up, and also some poorly thought out placements. I moved the chains on the other route they opened and was very alarmed at the extreme ease by which the bolts snapped when hammered off; they are definatetely of inferior quality - maybe I should rebolt both climbs. They seemed like nice guys but just young and daft; it is clear even to me that they did the wrong thing at YW too, at the very least they should have done a couple of the classics and tried to immerse themsleves in the local ethics and scene before trying to ''colonise'' the crag. I am also of the opinion that the unjustifiable bolts on that clinb should be removed. To prevent this sort of thing happening again we need to make it known on Wiki or on climb.za or other media, what the ethics are, and as locals we must continue to act as guardians. The article that the Germans wrote was published in Rotpunkt I think, so Snort perhaps you should write a letter to that magazine? Finally, let this not be a reflection on bolters or sport climbers in general, most of us pride ourselves in the quality of the lines we open and the sensitivities that surround bolting. Over and OUT.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:57 am 
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Location: Durban, South Africa
Real Name: Scott Sinclair
SNORT wrote:
Spitzkoppe, used to be a wild and beautiful place but has shit all over the place concentrated at the bolted short routes and that's because of the bolts there! And I cannot for one minute accept any dispute on that.

Hmmm. Did you notice the legions of camera toting tourists who arrive in big buses almost every night? I suspect they don't enjoy the manky longdrops..

_________________
At the chaaaaains boet!!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:43 am 
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Location: Cape Town
Hey Mok*.* did you just volunteer to draft the guide to bolting in the WC?

I think that maybe that guide should also go to the MCSA and to all climbing outlets.

_________________
Fat men are harder to kidnap


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:02 am 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
definitely not! i know far too little about the issues involved but like to be part of a healthy debate...... i'm just not sure how healthy this one is :?
but seriously, if there is some consensus on the issues i would give it a shot to write it up but i honestly think guys like andy / hilton davies; snort or justin are more qualified and more informed..... hope i just passed the buck :thumright


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:11 am 
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Andrew p
Thanks for that. Good one on your efforts mate.

Wayne73
There's a lot happening, with the right guys driving the project. This is taking place off-internet where most of the key-players refuse to be involved. Its a lot of work to get right. There will be something forthcoming this week.

Mokganjetsi
Your contributions have always been excellent. Who are you?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
he thanks hilton - sent you a pm. just about the nicest comment anybody has made :thumright


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:40 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Andrew P, young and daft is indeed what they must be. And yes, I have no doubt that they had good intentions - at least to aggrandize themselves.

And yes indeed, this is not about dissing sport climbers or sport climbs.

Visiting climbers must be properly advised and mentored and there must be no short cuts here.

If they are young and daft they must be prevailed on to respect the places they visit, engage and climb with the local climbers (I am always keen and available to take anyone climbing at our local crags) and shown what works and does not.

They should also really leave their drills at home as they will invariably not adhere to the local standards.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:39 am 
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Location: Cape Town (mostly :) )
@ Hilton.
Like I said before my interest in this is in the bigger picture. YW, and the three new routes there are the catalyst for a long overdue "think-tank" on the subject. This is not the only venue with these (potential) issues, and unless a workable solution is reached, it won't be the last.
At the same time it has highlighted errors and shortfalls in the status quo. Supposedly you (guys) are addressing these but until such time as you publish your thinking, I will continue to ask the questions. And, in essence, the question is such:

"By his own admition (sp?) SNORT has transgressed all of the following - bolted in big-wall country, bolted in sensitive areas, erred in those endeavors and he has sprayed about his exploits in the local and international media. And these are all issues which he takes 'the Germans' to task on.
SNORT is not alone in this, there are many examples of this.

As best we can tell he has always climbed existing routes in area's first (and then still erred), and has not left shit at the base of a route.

You, yourself, can justify a rap route (BTW, was it not originally bolted to scope new lines?), and concede that there is place for TRABIPO (did I get the acronym right?).

If these errors are made by the people shouting from the high ground, how do you propose to effect a workable managment policy WRT TRABIPO?"


Again, I've said before, this is best discussed around a beer - but you apparently have that under control. Alternativly the Braai I talk about can happen anytime - I happen to live behind the boerewors curtain so if you and your thinktank are prepared to travel i will happily host - u have my details to set this up, if not i will travel. Or not. Shrug.

SNORT wants to hold me accountable for others actions, so be it. But, remember, I have never placed a bolt or a peg and thus I have the high ground. It certainly is defendable...just not necessary to defend.

I advised (them) to the ethic I was aware of at the time, and likewise to the routes published - to my knowledge - at the time. This ground is not as high, but still defendable.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:40 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Question is will you Tristan (by promoting YW), and they (the Germans) learn from these mistakes? Do you even acknowledge that you have erred? Tristan as you know them are you going to let them know they erred or must I write to the German magazine and CLimbing.com as Andrew Pedley suggests and in so doing discredit them?

I have made it clear that I have erred and I also make it clear that I have learnt from it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:23 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 10:39 am
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Location: Cape Town (mostly :) )
SNORT in a previous thread i said something like:
"...if they were given bad beta, that rests on my shoulders...". That is the only 'error' which I will accept responsibility for.

To be completely honest, I never knew about "Down Time" until these threads so while I consider myself reasonably well informed as to the going's on around the 'hood, I do not purport to "know everyone who has been anywhere" all the time. Likewise, whatever medium was used to report Down Time and other New Routes is clearly not entirely effective. Likewise the bolt-free ethic was not reestablished post NB, and CERTAINLY not publicly available.

I corrected you in a private mail, but to reiterate here, and correct you again, I never "promoted" YW to them. Their plan was conceived prior to their arrival - and the plan was a second NEW BORN. FYI my first correspondence with them was the day before they arrived - but these points are irrelevant.

My involvement was to dissuade prodigious use of a drill, and to supply the most up-to-date route information I could lay my hands on through the channels I thought appropriate/relevant at the time.

Nobody, to my knowledge, made a fuss of or condemned NEW BORN or its style at the time, hence precedence had been established (in my eyes). The fact that I dissuaded (note, that is different to promote) overbolting should show a sensitivity to the subject. BUT, at the time in question, there were NO counter statements wrt YW and NB. What we are left with is a variance of interpretation of my dissuasion.

What have I "learnt"?:
- current local info is poor and often disputed
- precedent only seems to apply to history.

What I have been asking for:
- a thinktank to publish gereral accepted practices / ethics for a number of area's
- a thinktank to establish an areana for bolting, to appease the bolters. This is not going to go away. It might actually be easier to establish current 'protectorates' and concede that undeveloped area's are fair game.
- I'd like to see a crag where TRABIPO is "trialed" to establish a working example of what is acceptable under that style. This will require a lot of input, and will only work if the persons involved are tolerant and acceptant of criticism.
- that thinktank needs to comprise ppl from both camps (pro / anti bolting)

WRT how the persons involved are communicated with, we can discuss tomorrow. (PS: do I need to bring a helmet? Are you gonna stone me :) )


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:16 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
Tristan I dont think trapibollox is appropriate on most of our rock, the only time Ive ever opened a route in this style (bolts placed to replace poor gear) it turned out to be an unfortunate mistake, as the years passed new gear came onto the market that made protecting the line reasonably safe, so the bolts became redundant. They are still there (the blots) but I wouldnt go for that style again, 99% of the time a little ingenuity and a slightly bolder (without being reckless) approach solves the puzzle and the route goes clean. What Im saying is that this 'experiment' has already been done and was deemed in retrospect to be a failure.

I really feel that routes should be one style or another; trad if there are gear placements and sport for the blank (but climbable) stuff. Trapibol may have its place on limestone cliffs where natural placements can be very sparse and sometimes unreliable, but I have yet to see a trad route on our rock that requires bolts at the stances (just stance somewhere else - easy) and an obligatory two or three blots per pitch. My 2c keep it simple and clear-cut do one or the other. Well placed trad gear is absolutely bombproof, ppl must learn to trust it.


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