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 Post subject: DMM 4CU & Trigger wire
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:15 am 
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I purchased a set of new DMM 4CU about 8 years ago.
Recently the trigger wires have been cause of concern.

The trigger wires have been fraying and is now on the verge of breaking exactly as shown in the photo.
This is caused not by climbing or placing the cam, but from packing into a backpack.
When packed the cam head turns 90°, causing the trigger wire to make an acute angle at the metal clamp. This causes metal fatigue and in time a break in the cable.
- The attachments should help explain the above...

This is not unique to DMM, or double stem cams, as my Rock Empire single stem is doing the same.
It is rather a problem with larger cams.

To mend this seems to be no easy task as:
1) DMM is not shipping replacement triggers into RSA (I've tried MMO, CityRock, and currently K-Way is trying to find some)
2) Finding substitute trigger cable is difficult as most cables are too stiff and inflexible. I've had it to cable specialists and they don't have similar.
3) the original clamp has to be removed (it needs to be neatly filed off)
4) re-clamping is troublesome as no standard tool exists. I've had mine to a specialist tool-maker, who made a clamp and made a clamping tool, but the finished clamp does not look robust enough. (I had to remove it due to the cable not being flexible enough.

The questions I have are:
1) Do double stem cams, like Black Diamond, have a similar problem?
- A long time ago climbing partner had his BD trigger wires fraying, but I never paid proper attention to why.
- Does BD supply trigger wire replacements readily?
- If they do, how do you replace the damaged wire?

2) Any advice on how to mend my DMM and Rock Empire?

3) I still have some Wild Country solid stems and a Max cam.
Any advice on how to mend these once they show the same problem?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:52 am 
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I've used trace wire (for fishing) in the past puchased from Mias. I'm sure all tackle shops would have it. I can't remember the gauge I bought though (sorry), but just take a section of the old trigger wire along and eyeball it. To crimp the wire I also bought metal sleeves (also from the fishing shop) and just crimpped the bugger with a set of pliers and it seems to have held up well.

I've also been thinking of using old bicycle gear cables as trigger wire. It could be an option as bicycle cables are relatively cheap and come in much shorter lengths.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:59 am 
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Thanks Mark,
I'll give the fishing shops a try.

Concerning the bicycle cable:
That is what I'm currently experimenting with, but seems to be to stiff for the upper bend at the trigger.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:52 pm 
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Hi there, this is a fairly common problem for cams over a certain age/ usage.

I have replaced Trigger wires on quite a few Black Diamond Cams (of the old ladder sort & the newer ones) These Kits are definitely available from Black Diamond but as to their availability in South Africa.. :? They are simple to replace as the design has taken this into account (The trigger bar allows the wires to be removed & their attachment to the Cams can be done/ removed with a pair of pliers)

There may be more on the Black Diamond website, but in short -yes -Black Diamond Camalots allow for the replacement of the wires. As for 4CU's no idea. :thumright

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:31 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
Electrical contractor stores will have the crimp connectors. Every tool shop & hardware store should have crimp tools.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:00 pm 
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Ok, So I tried the trace wire and sleeve.

Sleeve size no. 5
Trace Wire "Sleeve A8", 68kg.
I repaired 2 cams, thus 8 crimps.
None held.

The Sleeve is just big enough to fit both the trigger stem and the trace wire with a little force.

I gave it my all with the pliers, but still the trace wire and the trigger stem slips out of the sleeve.
Did you drop some epoxy in with the sleeve?
Did you use a bigger sleeve?
Should I just eat some more mielie pap?

I'm at the point to simply chuck the 4CU's and buying brand new DB's....


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:35 pm 
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When crimping the ferrule, try using a pair af side cutters rather than a pair of pliers with a larger contact area. Concentrating the force in 2 or three spots on the ferrule might work. I have never repaired a cam before but have used ferules for other applications. Hope it works, it would be a pity to ditch your kit!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:50 am 
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Location: Cape Town
You need to use the proper crimper.
Either buy one, they are not that expensive, I would guess between R150.00 to R250.00 these days.
Or go to the place you bought the Ferrels and ask if you can borrow one for 5 minutes.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:34 pm 
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I repair cam cables. R 150 per cam. Get me on 082 346 1210 if you're interested. Ringo


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:46 pm 
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Real Name: Adam Roff
hann,
best way to fix trigger wires is not wire at all. buy yourself a roll of nylon weed-eater filament. you get yards of the stuff for cheap.put through the holes in the cam lobes, knot and melt a bit with a lighter. it looks crap but works brilliantly and doesn't fatigue. you may need to find small diam stuff for your smaller cams.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:52 am 
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The problem I have had with the weed-eater nylon is that when retrieving an over cammed unit you can pull hard enough for the stuff to start stretching...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:27 am 
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To all who posted advice:

Thanks, it all pointed me in the right direction.

I contacted DMM directly (K Way was their usual best at service delivery).
DMM stated the they do not supply replacement trigger wires due to possible liability claims.
They will however repair if you mail the cam back to Wales.

Here is my fix:

1) To replace the ferrule as per original proved complicated.
I found that no matter how good the crimp was, when I placed force on the trigger the connection failed.
I have to add that my trigger wire and stem was of different sizes.

2) I didn't test the weed-eater as per mr Roff, due to shared concerns of MarkM.

Below is what I came up with.

Pic 1: Original - Purple cam

Pic 2: Solution 1 - Green cam, cable straight through the cam-lobe. Concerns are metal fatigue where the cable and lobe meet.

Pic 3, Pic 4: Solution 2: Improved. Green cam. Silver Cam. Original stem bent and attached to cable.
This stem can be replaced with a 1,5mm Diam, spyker.

Pic 5: Same solution, different brand.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:43 am 
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.... Continued

Pic 3, Pic 4: Solution 2: Improved. Green cam. Silver Cam. Original stem bent and attached to cable.
This stem can be replaced with a 1,5mm Diam, spyker.

Pic 5: Same solution, different brand.

So considering that DMM will not supply replacement trigger wires any more, can anybody confirm that Black Diamond still does?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:52 am 
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Nice one!

The only potential issues I see are those little wire loops catching on things.
Also, I would think that the pure cable solution may wear fairly quick.

I'm surprised that you could not get a good connection between a straight bit of wire and the cable.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:31 am 
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Real Name: Warren Gans
BD carries C4 trigger kits as a standard stock holding in RSA, however as they are a slower moving item we may from time to time be out of certain sizes. if you unlucky enough to have the need for one during these periods we get shipments from BD monthly, meaning you shouldn’t wait too long for stock of a given size. With repsect to C3 trigger kits we have not as yet had a request for one, and as the trigger is so enclosed within the device we suspect this statement will remain true for a while.

I am sorry to hear about the DMM service issues: fortunately there are other brands who do offer these after sale service solutions to their customers.

Regards

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:13 am 
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Hey guys, I need to repair a trigger on one of my tech friends, but I'm a bit stuck. I can't get the bloody trigger wire out of the trigger. I've got this http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/dnlds/Repair%20Instructions%20Technical%20Friends%20Post%2004.pdf from Wild Country's website, but it is kinda useless. Basically it seems to show that you have to press the round little plastic thingy through the trigger. If I can manage to do that I think I might be able to pull the trigger wire out. Another problem is that the stiff wire that goes into the lobes isn't bent over on the other side, but it rather seems like the wire is almost cone shaped. I think the only way to get the wire out is to cut it of on the side that it is crimped to the cable. I figured that if I can get the whole trigger wire out I can replace it with an old guitar string I got from my flat mate. My plan is to make stopper knots to prevent it from pulling through the cam lobes. I'm just afraid it won't work, my strength is more in theory than practice (well that's the theory in any case :mrgreen: ). Is there anyone who can give me some advise on firstly how to get the trigger wire out and secondly if I'm on my way to make a mess?

Ringo, do you still do repairs? Can you do it on Tech Friends? I think maybe a prober job is going to be worth it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:35 am 
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I think the instructions (#3) mean that you cut the stiff wire off wiff your tang. Then when you put the replacement in (#7 - 10) you bend the stiff wire from the trigger replacement kit with that cone shaped apparatus after inserting it into the lobe to keep it in place.

Guitar strings... if they're the ones for acoustic guitars, they're designed to stretch until they're stretched out. But I have a suspicion you got a steel string off a Flying V or something...which would be hard to knot maybe?

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:06 am 
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Guitar strings snap real easy, especially if you are Jimi Hendrix.
Besides, he could have made that thing sing with just 1 string....
And then there's the issue twisting your G string ...

So unless you were the "Jimi" of trad climbing, I wouldn't consider this option.

(That's quite a rare shot of him with the Gibson V, he almost exclusively used a Strat...)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:48 pm 
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hmmm, yeah I wasn't thinking there, thanks guys. I hoped it would make my cam sing, but it might just make me cry instead. I was put in contact with someone who can maybe help me, but first I need to work work work :puker: Pierre, I bet you also have no trouble reading manuals of chinese origin, well done. I think I'm going to wait for expert advise before I tang it up.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:25 am 
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you mean like this?


Last edited by pierre.joubert on Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:35 am 
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Real Name: Chris Rowlands
Warren G wrote:
BD carries C4 trigger kits as a standard stock holding in RSA, however as they are a slower moving item we may from time to time be out of certain sizes. if you unlucky enough to have the need for one during these periods we get shipments from BD monthly, meaning you shouldn’t wait too long for stock of a given size. With repsect to C3 trigger kits we have not as yet had a request for one, and as the trigger is so enclosed within the device we suspect this statement will remain true for a while.

I am sorry to hear about the DMM service issues: fortunately there are other brands who do offer these after sale service solutions to their customers.

Regards


Just for the record I would like to clarify that there are no DMM service issues, and that to post to that effect on an open forum without full knowledge of the facts is misleading, unfair and not what we would expect from another professional Brand.Enough said.

Outward Ventures, our Distributor of many years in South Africa contacted me as soon as they heard about this issue, and I have now supplied the correct info to them which I will repeat here.

No we do not supply a rewiring kit.
We do offer a rewiring service .
The cams need to be returned to us so we can swage the cables to the L wires using the correct swages and set to the right pressures .
The cams can be returned to Outward Ventures , or to us direct at DMM whichever is most convenient. We will attempt to return the cams as soon as possible so the owner isn't left without the units for too long.
Once the cams are returned to us we fully inspect them for any other defects through our quality system, and if there are any problems we will inform the customer.
As a matter of course we will re sling the unit at the same time.

Other general observations would be that the original poster said the cam was 8 years old, and so it has probably done pretty well to last 8 years without deteriation anyway. However bearing in mind the guidelines for Dyneema and Nylon the sling could be more of a cause for concern than the wires.

If you have any questions regarding DMM Kit please do contact Outward Ventures, or DMM direct and we will try to answer all queries as fully as possible.

Cheers
Chris Rowlands Brand Manager DMM


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:50 pm 
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Yes Shorti, I repair trigger cables. It's no big deal if you have the correct tools. I have repaired many BD Camelots and Tech friends, including all of my own. It's just a bit finicky and of course choice of correct cables and crimps is important. I also can clean the cams and and shafts ultrasonically so that all of the crap is removed. I'm away at the moment but you can contact me on my cellphone.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Thanks Ringo. I'll contact you as soon as soon as my slave driver boss allows me to use the phone again.

Where do you stay?

Ok gotta go, here comes the boss with his whip :bom:


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