Please can somebody tell me what possessed Robert to bolt the route known as "Book of Fun" at Rooiberg in the southern Cederberg? It is a perfect corner crack system that provides excellent protection the entire pitch, and yet the line has been spoilt by needless bolting. My point is emphasized by the fact that another crack system nearby ("Fetch me a Shrubbery") was left unbolted; except for some convenient belay/rap anchors at the top. It is frustrating to learn that just about any monkey with a drill can go up to whichever crag they choose and start bolting with impunity. Are there no standards anymore?

Why is it perfectly acceptable for some ignoramus to bolt a perfectly obvious tradline, but when someone goes and bolts a rap station at the top of India buttress, a huge fuss is made and the bolts chopped? I understand that TM is a national monument and that to place bolts on the mountain is technically illegal; but then tell me who placed all the various rap stations on TM? And how is it that these bolts mysteriously appeared one day, with no one from TMNP or MCSA having a fit? Are we supposed to turn a blind eye when it is convenient or are we actually going to follow some sort of ethical guideline when it comes to bolting?

shit here we go again. i bolted this route.
why does anyone bolt anything anywhere. ultimately almost anything can be tradded. i would venture to say that ANYTHING i have ever climbed in the Western Cape can be tradded, with the exception of some paarl rock stuff.
i love trad. but sport has its place too.
the background: the owners of the farm bought a shitload of bolts and asked tony lourens (and myself) to scout out the crag for some climbing opportunities. and thereby attract some climbers to stay at their place. we explored the crag, found quite a few trad as well as few bolt routes. the fact is that sport is the lowest common denominator and most climbers in SA just own a rope and draws. trad this line if you like, nobody is asking you to clip the bolts. or trad the other lines we thought were better left unbolted. and btw where were you in opening this new crag for all of us to benefit from. fire extinguishers standing by.

Come on Robert thats a total cop-out of an answer! I challenge you to climb 'Me or My Girl' at Bosch crag on only trad gear! Note that most of the routes at this crag were originally opened with the bear minimum of bolts so you should have a fair shot at it, just call me first so I can watch!

Please for heanens sake, there is a huge difference between a relatively blank face with marginal gear and an obvious crack system with bombers gear all the way up the thing!! Another one for the chop list! Charles take note - when ur finished at YW..... No-one has the right to exploit the rock for financial gain when it entails prostituting widely accepted practice and ethics, both you and Tony know better and should have advised the landowner that that route should be left inviolate, surely there was other stuff you could have bolted to give this dude his little sport crag?? Pretty lame action, just like Tony's bolting of perfect corners in the Northern Cape for the same reason - get a clue guys!!

Below is a list of bolted routes that were chopped for ethical reasons in SA.

......0.......

Clearly it does not matter enough for anyone to take action.

"Are there no standards anymore?"...no, none were set for us in the in the past?
"are we actually going to follow some sort of ethical guideline when it come to bolting?".....clearly not, who will make us? why should we?

Its a jungle out there...get over it...it does not matter enough to take action.

Dude, what's your problem? You're continually negative about this subject. If you've got nothing constructive to say or just don't give a **** about ethics/bolting, then rather shut up, because some people do care about this stuff.

Stu, "because some people do care about this stuff"...,but not enough to do anything. We do stuff (take action/effort/risk) about stuff that matters. This is just talking.

If this route really offended Tradude he would have restored it. But it seems it wasn't worth the effort.

I have, in the past, had plans to chop various routes(I bolted) for various trad/ethic reasons. It's just not worth wasting precious climbing days.

i love all these arm chair climbers and bolters and choppers on this forum that in fact haven't climbed or bolted for years. never mind chopped anything. could tradude be tristan or someone from the YW forum who has registered as a new user, aka a a diversion troll? xmod, you too seem to have joined the arm chair climbing club?
fact is rooiberg and my route are on private land and all i was doing is following the owners requests. i am proud of that route and stand by it. so go ahead tradude or xmod, tresspass and do malicious damage to private property. i hope the farmer has the shotgun and rottweilers ready for you. or convince him that the crag should become a trad crag. but we all know that just like marshall says, this is just a big wank theoretical discussion from the comfort of your laptop.
i have had dozens of compliments on this route from many climbers who actually enjoyed it. like with most things in life you can't please everyone. i am mature enough to realise that one sour apple doesnt make the whole basket wrotten.

gmmmfff, marshal your defiance stumps me. what's happening on the forum is imho very valuable - it challenges the way people think about stuff, and actions follows thoughts. i've never chopped a route but can imagine that its a lot of work and therefore disaproval would not necessarily mean go-out-and-chop, but it might save the next perfect trad line from getting zippered up. modern man has this arrogant sense of entitlement - as long as i'm within the law i can do what i want - as opposed to a sense of stewardship. look at how we are stuffing-up the environment on a grand scale with the exact same type of reasoning. the decisions we make today and the ethics we adopt has a profound effect on what the world looks like 50 or a 100 years from now. saying "yeah right, everybody does what they want anyhow and i was within my rights" is not on bru!

i'm not saying that robert should not have bolted that route - there are quite a few bolted crack lines at boven and nobody worries because its a sport crag = happiness. but the attitude in your reasoning gives rogues and outlaws the latitude they want to go and stuff up places that are worth protecting.

Robert,

I think that should read Tristan (with a capital letter).

PS: Traddude, if you use your real name, I'll bother to read your post beyond the first line...

_________________
Gustav
Roc 'n Rope Adventures
Waterval Boven
013 257 0363
rocrope dot com

Well said Mok (the compliments just keep on coming your way

Marshall, what gives? Someone or something crawl up and bite you in the ass recently???
I can tell you that things are happening.
I'm sure that everyone (including you) will agree that it is better to plan/discuss and then take the necessary action - rather than go in blindly (ignorantly) and blow the mountain up! Only to be met by an angry shot gun toting landowner or (worse) deal with the wrath of Climbza forum users !!

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Climb ZA - Administrator

You assume too much. Not every climber in SA posts here, so lets not assume these boards represent the actions or views of the entire climbing community.
Personally I have chopped two routes. One run-out sport route that I retro-bolted, and the other was a mixed route I opened, ruining it by first bolting the entire thing. But for obvious reasons it's not something I or others like to broadcast

On this Rooiberg bolting issue. I was scouting bike trails a while back and stayed at Nuwerust. After seeing the crag myself, and chatting to the farmer, I was glad for his sake that he could get some extra people to stay on his farm through climbing. He and his wife are both lovely people, and inherited the farm from her parents. It's the usual story, kids dont want to farm, moved to the city etc. (Unfortunately there wasn't really decent potential for bike trails, as if there were it would bring a lot more people to his farm than climbing would).

That said, when he told me there were some guys bolting the crag I was glad. It has great trad potential too, but it's a tricky one because as Robert said, it appeals to the masses (please don't use the term 'lowest common denominator'). That's the same success that 'boven has enjoyed. Climbing trad doesn't buy you into some elite class. It's just a lot more costly and committed than what I think the average climber would want to do. I completely agree with mokanjetski's comment as well: "modern man has this arrogant sense of entitlement - as long as i'm within the law i can do what i want - as opposed to a sense of stewardship". But where does one draw the line? We are all trying to survive on this overcrowded planet. Man has left his mark on just about every inch of this place.

The way people carry on about bolts on this forum really shows up the community of climbers. It just looks bad, and I agree with Marshall. If it bothers you so much, then do something about it. Sitting there typing and pointing fingers is infantile. Go out there, educate the farmer at Nuwerust about the ethics etc, and go and chop the route. The reality is, if we had to chop every trad'able line we'd be chopping more than climbing, so there has to be a point where you let it go. If, of course, a route is dangerously bolted (i.e incorrect hardware, bad placements etc) then by all means the route should be chopped so as to protect your fellow climbers, but really now, if an area is intended to attract the masses, the weekend away climbers, then bolt things for them to climb.

It's just crazy to carry on and on and on and on about it. Go out there, connect with the family at Nuwerust, see what lekker people they are, then see where your so called 'ethics' lie afterwards. We are ALL hypocrites in so many ways, so maybe its time for people to get off their high horses.

Bottom line, it's the farmer's land, and he can have routes put up if he wants. I'd trust Tony's (I don't know Robert) judgement on the matter. Also, I'd be keen to hear what contribution the OP has made to the climbing community other than spark another bolt whine fest.

cheers

Mixing business/sponsorship/OPM with climbing invariably leads to ill conceived actions. Is this the venue that Tony made a case for the co-existence of trad and sport? If so it does not wash with me as an argument as there is a vested interest in attracting the lowest common denominator. It also does not wash if a crack line that lends itself to trad has been bolted. It again smacks of OPM and makes a mockery of the concept of co-existence.

Since being to De Pakhuys where I found a really cool trad line bolted - (and yes indeed I did trad climb it and did not clip the bolts) I do not buy the argument of the co-existence of trad and sport especially when there is a commercial interest in either. I could bypass the bolts with my trad gear but I could also bypass the beautiful yellowwood tree that had been hacked out by the bolters! What a disgrace. I would stake my personal reputation on it that trad climbers would not have cut down the Yellowwood. (That is not to say trad climbers have not done flora damage in the past - the route Egowhip in the Magalies would not exist but for roots being hacked off it in the 80's)

For those of you do not know the Restaurant at Boven was initially a trad area and there were many fine trad lines. All those lines got retrobolted.
The lowest common denominator will prevail and lead to the overuse and abuse of all these areas. If that's what the landowner wants, then so be it. I sincerely hope the Cape Nature holds onto every scrap of land it can and I believe all the Cederberg including private land should remain bolt free. I wish I had the money to buy it all and keep the LCD away. The fauna and flora is so fragile there and there is barely a Ceder tree left. Hence the access problems at Truitjieskraal.

As for the actual route that got bolted. I shall go there and see for myself sometime. I have never criticised a particular bolted route that I have not done.

Nope, sorry Robert - not me. Now stop deflecting the topic and take the heat like a man. Or, wait, maybe you realize an indefensible "stance" when you see one

I imagine that the pseudonym is because the writer is known by his accuzee and his mates (may actually be a mate) and its easier to not get personal under a pseudonym. I don't have a pseudonym FYI

I also don't think we should become overly sanctimonious either. It's private land and if that's what the owner wants, so be it. It's his land, and he is more than likely not a climber and is looking to make some money. Let it be.
There are plenty of other existing trad routes and areas to worry ourselves with, so lets not point fingers at a couple of okes who bolted a few routes at the request of the landowner. Surely there are more important things to concern ourselves with than one piece of rock.

Stu owning land and climbing stewardship are different things. Because a cliff is on private land it does not mean climbing ethics can and should be ignored.

Furthermore, I raised the question as to whether this was the area thattrad and sport are supposed to co-exist in harmony. This is obviously not the case and so it puts into serious question the editorial by Tony Lourens who is a media person who amongst other things refelcts the views of his readers or who influences the views of his readers - many who are climbers. The fact that the hardware on the routes was sponsored also bothers me. Have bolts - must drill? In a rush? As Andrew Pedley says about the German dudes at Boven

SNORT:


All those lines? There are a whole bunch of fine trad routes here (thankfully!) ... I'll gladly take you around next time - example: http://www.climbing.co.za/gallery2/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=11&pos=1 and of course at the waterfall there is a nice 18 on trad with one of my favourite route names: SPORT CLIMBING IS DEAD - really!

There are many examples of co-existance in 'Boven (trad routes next to bolted routes - NOT sport routes that can be tradded!) here is one: http://www.climbing.co.za/gallery2/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=11&pos=1

The crack is Coming of Pride 18 and the arete is 23, bolted [by Germans] in 1993 (4 bolts in 15m). Both interesting climbs and the arete will never be protected naturally.

_________________
Gustav
Roc 'n Rope Adventures
Waterval Boven
013 257 0363
rocrope dot com

Hey Snort

I would like to challenge you regarding this even though I know that you will flame me, proberbly.

Firstly I am a classic armchair climber who has not added anything to climbing ever but as I have a laptop and opinion, so here we go.

I do not think that it is possible that every trad route can stay bolt free. Sport climbers need places to climb too, in this area the land owner want's the area to be as accessible as posible to the climbing "masses" he has asked for routes to be bolted. The guys bolting have bolted what they believe to be good routes (I hope) one of these can take trad gear, so what. This is an area that is contained and designated for sport climbing by the owner. Sport climbers now can climb a crack system instead of a blank face - it might appeal to them and hopefully they go out and start tradding (as oppossed to bolting cracks). A large amount of the climbing community do not have trad gear or the skill to place it. This can maybe encourage them to get some and be a good place to learn to place gear as you can back yourself up with bolts.

You cannot control every piece of rock on every persons land. Fight the good fight as you have for Yellowwood, lets not have issues over one single pitch climb on a guys farm. Compromise is sometimes nessassary.

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Fat men are harder to kidnap

The only malicious damage to private property has been to bolt "Book of Fun". I still don't understand how one crackline is left alone whilst another is savaged by ignorance.

The landowner, who has very little idea of the heated debates that go on here amongst online climbers, gives you guys a bunch of bolts and says: "scout the place". So the first thing you do is walk up to a perfect crackline and say: "hmmm, this looks good! Pass me the drill." This is simply unnacceptable. The onus lies upon you, the bolter, who should have the common sense and decency to leave the more obvious tradlines alone. Why were those bolts not used to open up an awesome sport route on a face/roof that would otherwise offer no protection? It is no excuse to say that the landowner gave you permission to bolt there, or to say that the majority of climbers in SA are of the 'clip and climb' variety.

The fact remains that there should be some kind of ethic when it comes to bolting. I am not against sport climbing per se, I am against muppets with drills who insist on bolting everything in site, irrespective of whether it might be a potential or existing trad route. Blindly bolting a crag with little thought as to whether a certain line can be climbed with trad gear or not simply exacerbates the situation. It is not my intention to deepen the divide between so called "sport climbers" and "trad climbers" or to say that one discipline is better than the other. All I want is for some sort of consensus to be reached when it comes to the issue of placing bolts.

If we had to chop the sport routes in 'Boven that "realistically" can be climbed on trad or those that were retro-bolted, there will be a LOT of chopping happening. It has been branded a sport climbing area though and bolts next to cracks don't upset me any longer [that much].

I do have endless respect for the guys who open trad routes here and prefer for them to remain trad. Let's not forget, if the area has no protocol or legislastion governing the ethics to be applied, it is up to the first ascentionist to decide. And it is up to the climbing community to appreciate and respect other climbers for "seeing the line" or "keeping it free".

Only if there we have definite rules in place for each area, can we throw our toys out the cot afterwards and go chop-chop. It was easy 20 years ago because most climbers knew each other or about each other. Now there are 1000's of climbers and dozens of drills. So, without wanting do defend the Germans or Robert (and Tony?), if nothing is written down somewhere, its easy to 'make mistakes'.

And its easy to chop.

_________________
Gustav
Roc 'n Rope Adventures
Waterval Boven
013 257 0363
rocrope dot com

I agree with what Gustav has just said. If there ever was any
"consensus" on whether to place fixed points of protection (and
where/how many), the consensus has surely always been that it was at
the discretion of the first ascentionist.

Bolting a route is not evil, just because it's tradable. I'm not sure
how anyone can genuinely argue that it's any different from bolting a
route at all (untradable is a really subjective term!!). Either take
the position that *all* fixed protection is an abomination (and be a
very grumpy person), or accept that you will sometimes be disappointed
by the actions of the first ascentionist.

Naturally, it's up to the first ascentionist to exercise restraint
(engage brain) to reduce the number of disappointments resulting from
their decisions, and then to live with the heat from those whose
opinion differs strongly..

If you don't like fixed protection on tradable routes then join
Marshall1 in his ongoing quest to open every single tradable route in
the country before some muppet with a drill gets there and bolts it
(actions - not words remember).

P.S. @SNORT - what is "OPM" ??

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At the chaaaaains boet!!

Stu, OPM is other people's money i.e. sponsored kit i.e. perverse incentive.

The first ascenionist has the discretion indeed. But long term consequences of the style and damage to the area must be considered. Trad routes by their very nature are infinitely more environmentally friendly than sport routes which is really the essence of the debate. Bolts beget more poeple, the more poeple, the more is the environmental impact and also the greater chance of yobs arriving - as Robert said the farmer at Nuwerust went and bought a shit load of bolts to attract customers.

"Marshall, what gives? Someone or something crawl up and bite you in the ass recently???"

Just tired of the same old re-hashed trad vs sport discussion with no action....only bla-bla. In countries with proper established trad ethics & areas...its box & chop. Taking action is how they preserve ethics & areas. Making lists & setting policy....is not real action.

For example:
Someone sprays graffiti at a crag. If it is important to you... clean it off. If you catch him & its is important to you spank him. You don't make a list or set policy if it is important. Do something

Prevention is better than cure. Taking out bolts at YW is hard work.

Umm it's Scott (and not Noy by the way). Thanks for decoding the
acronym.



I totally agree, that the argument is all about impact. Unfortunately
people keep harping on about bolting tradable lines, that's a personal
preference issue in my opinion. The issue is about managing user
volumes and especially behaviour to reduce the impacts of climbing.

I'm not convinced that discouraging bolting actually solves the core
problem. In my view, the main reason trad is more friendly on the
environment is because (currently in SA, maybe internationally?) fewer
climbers participate and the impact is lower, based purely on
numbers. The existence of well-considered fixed protection on routes
is not an issue of any consequence. If it becomes the norm that
everyone climbs trad then the overuse problems (and yobs - now
climbing trad) will simply migrate to different venues. Luckily some
places are partially self selecting, given the mission required to get
there, climb, and come back safely...

In a nutshell - don't blame the bolts, or sport climbers,
blame/box/educate those who display a lack of respect for the
environment we all play in.

_________________
At the chaaaaains boet!!

Er...I've bolted a single-pitch sport route at Rooiberg.

That picture of a climber on Book of Fun on page 111 in Tony's guide book was taken by me, of my older boy Kieren on the route.

Tradude sure ain't me. I have plenty blood on my hands...

Nuwerus is a nice campsite and Rooiberg is a nice piece of rock but isn't a high-value historical trad venue and so it doesn't come onto my radar.

Robert: FYI I have actually been climbing a fair bit recently, just far from the madd(en)ing crowd. Its nonsense like this that keeps me away from the mainstream. Stop trying to deflect the subject and excuse your actions or hide them behind veiled insults leveled at your detractors! You screwed up dude! Face the facts! When you were asked to bolt there your very first initiative should have been to educate the farmer on accepted climbing practice and ethics. If you and Tony had bothered to do the job properly there would be no problem or argument. And beisides that you wasted bolts - unforgivable!

Snort: an excellent point about Tony (he should read these forums!) he lays claim to the title of 'professor' of SA climbing when in truth his actions and publications have been highly questionable.

Scott: Youre missing the point completely, bolting unnecessarily (and destroying precious trad resources) IS detrimental to climbing.

Marshall: we rant on here about the same old hackneed (sp?) bolt debate because ppl are not recieving the same background and information that we were privvy to during our climbing adolesence. Its as if the whole clean climbing revolution of the late 70's and 80's never happened. Ppl need to learn about this stuff otherwise all the efforts of our predecessors (mostly iconic climbing heroes) is totally and untterly wasted, and that really would be a tragedy. BTW we have also chopped bolts from trad routes so your equation is rubbish.

Take a note from Fred Nicole (in this case talking about chipping), he said that a good pure natural line, particularly a hard one, is one of the most rare things you could ever hope to encounter. He searches endlessly for these. When found they should be treasured and revered as a great gift from the creator, not treated as some piece of consumerist currency to be exploited and profited from. Nor brought down to our level of mediocrity by chipping or bolting. Ethics are the only thing keeping us from completely raping our environment, this is why they so vitally important to pass on to the new generation. Dont destroy what you came to enjoy!

tradude doesnt usually involve himself with this forum, but was moved to register and post after what he saw on a brief holiday (on that note: who brings chopping equipment with them on holiday marshall? ) so no, its not anyone who's been involved in the recent rumbles.

just thought i should clear that up for you guys..

- and its not me either..i have no stake in these arguments

@XMod, I don't think I am missing the point. The only precious
resources are the mountain environments we choose to *play* in and we
all need to take more responsibility for the consequences of our
actions there.

SNORT argues that bolts attract more climbers and that this increases
environmental impact. I agree that easy bolted routes at accessible
crags have this effect and that as a precaution careful consideration
should be given to the possible impacts of bolting routes in wild and
sensitive areas. I'm just thinking out aloud and trying to understand
why people appear to see our tradition of not bolting tradable lines
as something more noble than a simple compromise to avoid heated
debates and boxing.

_________________
At the chaaaaains boet!!

Thats the point Scott! Its a pity the perpetrators in this case would rather try and insult ppl than admit they made a mistake. Our resources are precious, more than you think, and need protection. Look at how the cracks and faces in Yosemite have been scarred through indiscriminate use of pitons, this is why the whole clean climbing revolution happened (that and technical advances in gear manufacture). Following that ethic of reverence for nature and having the will to protect it is something of an absolute. Bolting is in direct violation of those ideals and should only be done with very clearly thought good reasoning behind it. Bolting a crack simply coz some farmer asked you to is to ridicule those ideals, especially when the two ppl doing the bolting know full well that it is wrong.



At least you are trying to understand, whereas others who do understand are simply choosing to ignore their knowledge. Bolting an obvious trad line like that is a slap in the face to the rest of the educated climbing community. Read up on your climbing past, particularly the developments through the 70's and 80's, things will be clearer then. You cant compromise an ideal, it wouldn't be an ideal then would it?

Lets make this real simple so everyone can understand
DONT BOLT CRACKS!!!