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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:23 pm
Posts: 233
It was fair enough for guys to question how Adam, Jeremy and I could concoct a Yellowwood ethics statement.

We're active climbers and we have been talking a lot with the local climbers who can or do operate at Yellowwood. To firm up on this, I've asked some for whom I have email addresses to provide written confirmation of support of this statement. The names are being added below the statement in the first post of this thread.

If I haven't been able to reach you, please pm your name and confirmation to me and I will add your name to the list.

sincerely
Hilton Davies


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Posts: 830
Real Name: Greg Hart
I think pretty sensible stuff has come out of the debates around YW even we do harp on (and on) about it.
Dumb trolls like S(hut) T(he) F(-ck) U(p) [why dont you pleez] dont get to me in the slightest even if they do re-iterate their personal bile threefold in one post (-distinct lack of imagination and scope!). @STFU try bolting your head squarely onto your shoulders so you dont lose your kop again bru!

As for more bolted routes what are you (all of you) doing to make this a reality? I know of at least two other walls in the valley that are being developed. Theres a lot of rock around if you just bother to look around.


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:25 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:53 am
Posts: 888
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Heinrich and MarkM.

If I had the time and energy I would chop every bolt or fixed piece I ever placed if they started attracting the LCD. It was mooted 10 years ago to put a sport route at Blouberg. If this is done I will personally guarentee and bet you R50,000.00 rand that it will attract LCD's and you will start seeing toilet paper and step in shit. Unlike Milner which is on private land with and owner who controls access, there is no gate keeper at Blouberg.

But yes you are welcome to chop any bolt or fixed piece I ever placed if you climb the route on-sight without using the fixed piece. In fact I sincerely hope someone does.

Dave Birket is in the country right now. Am keen to go to Blouberg with him and see how he does on those routes. WIll take a spanner and a hammer with me to take em out.


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:01 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 1168
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
shorti my brew! you should become like speech writer for el presidente! :thumleft: :alien:

offer still stands for you & exo to come visit so that we can chack out what all the yellowood fuss is about - slack time & prime time are in the offering.......


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:13 pm
Posts: 696
Wayne73 wrote:
what is deja vu for deja vu. :?

That's funny, I'm pretty sure I've seen that one before.

mokganjetsi wrote:
shorti my brew! you should become like speech writer for el presidente!

Sorry Mok, I know I'm a little stupid, but nowhere near enough for a job like that! But I like the reference to my favourite beverage. Your offer will have to wait until after the world cup. I'm not keen to spend all my money on a plain ticket just to go climb at a place with crap all over it :twisted:

Heinrich, I'll leave you with a song from the Nudies - I am your friend I | AM | YOUR | FRIEND I am your cam :puker: :mrgreen:

Xmod, you're not much of a duck, are you (maybe a sitting one)? - you know, with the water running down its back and all that nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:21 am
Posts: 273
Real Name: Henk Grobler
SNORT wrote:
But yes you are welcome to chop any bolt or fixed piece I ever placed if you climb the route on-sight without using the fixed piece. In fact I sincerely hope someone does.


SNORT I'm curious... how many of those bolts on Your Mother His Face did you guys clip?

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You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:53 am
Posts: 888
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Henck, why are you curious?

Most of them. Because they were there. A bit like the reason why Mallory climbed Everest - it was there. The soft option.... yes?

There in lies the rub. The LCD.

I know many climbers that would hike that route without using a single bolt.

I backed off the one crux and Joe took a long fall on Aliens that I had placed.

Going there with Clinton tomorrow. May do it with him and see how he does....

Will let you know which ones he clips and then remove the others.


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 567
I've got a question for everyone sitting firmly in the pro-sport route corner.
Let's say consensus was reached that in fact a few sport lines could be bolted at Yellowwood - how many of us would actually go and (put the effort in to) bolt something there (I'm not refering to the usual suspects). Throughout Du Toit's entire history there has been no action from the sport climbers side whatsoever. I just find it amusing that there are so many armchair critics around who haven't lifted a finger to advance multi-pitch sport climbing in the Cape. At least the current group of over-psyched hot-heads :wink: are putting in some effort up there.
I suppose that's a little harsh from my side considering the history of sport climbing in SA (Western Cape) and the agreements that were reached regarding sport and trad lines, but I'm just thinking out loud here.
Please take note that this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but is rather just a lazy days ramble.


Last edited by Stu on Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 722
Stu wrote:
Throughout Du Toit's entire history there has been no action from the sport climbers side whatsoever.


Where is the Brave Cave?


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 567
pierre.joubert wrote:
Where is the Brave Cave?

Little cryptic there, what's your point.


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Posts: 830
Real Name: Greg Hart
A sitting duck ay? Maybe but tnen Id have to sit down to wade through all of this mud or Id fall asleep on my feet! Stfu is irritating but theres so much other shit to deal with on a daily basis who cares about inet crap?
Just surf, have a good vibe, thats it.
Ppl like stfu can stick tneir drills up their bums and rotate!


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:49 am 
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Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 5:39 pm
Posts: 304
Location: JHB
@ Stu - (Not that I have any intention of bolting a multi-pitch line in the WC, but as an outsider this is the feeling I get) First up I do not think that many people would head out to bolt a multi-pitch line (anywhere in SA), there aren't too many active bolters in SA as is. And ultimately what's the point of putting in any effort to bolt multi-pitch sport line in the WC if you're bound to get flamed, headed up by 'The Handful of WC Climbing Decision Makers' and then have you're route chopped cos they know people, who know people who climb amazingly well (but aren't sponsored and only climb for themselves :wink: and therefore don't fall into the LCD) who could cruise your route onsight on gear (with no chalk or shoes, in their sleep).

To me this whole issue has degraded into a bit of a dick swinging contest to be honest.

I get the point of trying to limit bolts but this whole argument has been going in circles for a while. If you want to chop the bolts chop them - as far as I can tell that's been done now :thumleft: . If the German dudes feel so strongly about their route they'll come back and re-bolt it, I guess. Then you can have a fight, like Marshall suggests.

I also think though that when we (Saffas) put our routes into the international media we should be careful how we word some of our suggestions, "The bivvy is very comfy and there are 3 mats there. Don’t throw off any rocks as these can be used to shit on and then thrown off." (Snort I'm just using this as an example...) From http://www.climbing.com/exclusive/features/dogofthunder/index6.html
As a foreigner, I read this and think:
1. it's cool to stash stuff and leave it at bivvys
2. no need for a poop tube (shite and paper gets tossed) so what's the difference if I take a dump at the base of the crag (like I do at my home crags).
and after reading the whole article
3. Bolts are okay at abseil/belay stations
4. Bolts can be placed (even on rappel)

Foreigners don't intuitively know our scene or each of the rules for each of our venues, nor can we expect them to (yes they should have tried to find out as much info about the area as possible, but it would seem that they did speak to locals). We can't have one set of rules for visitors and another set for locals.

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Open hand, open mind...


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:47 am 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:48 pm
Posts: 265
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Guy Holwill
@ Mark

Nicely put. This is the first sensible post in this thread. (I've not really contributed anything to anything for ages, so I'm choosing to think that I must have taught you something over a pint at some stage. Probably not, but I'll live the delusion like all the other has-been's or never-were's who do more blogging than climbing.)

To sum up my irrelevant view; you cannot inflict secret ethics rules on people - if you feel strongly that rules are required, then publish them somewhere (how else would the German's or others know the ethic). I suggest this that this website could have a simple database stating the ethics and access/bolting processes for each crag. This could easily be updated as required.

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There's no point being pessimistic, because it probably won't work


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:26 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 722
@Stu - Apparently it's in Du Toit's kloof, but not in the Yellowwood area.


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:38 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 567
@MarkM - My comment was not aimed at bolters/non-bolters/trad freaks or whatever - rather that there is so much other rock around, why worry about a single venue like Yellowwood?

If sport climbers really want to see a decent multi-pitch sport route opened, there is plenty of rock around to do so. Leaving one area like Yellowwood as a trad/mixed only area will not limit sport climbing in the WC.
Besides, there is at least one sport route IP at the moment (apart from the Brave Cave) so I really don't see what the problem is.
@Pierre - Was feeling a bit prickly yesterday :) See my comments above.


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:01 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:41 pm
Posts: 164
Quote:
offer still stands for you & exo to come visit so that we can chack out what all the yellowood fuss is about - slack time & prime time are in the offering.......


Mokg: Carlien (then my wife... :lol: ) and I may be there in September, and for pretty much one mission: YW. But if my work allows it, i'm there most definitely!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:53 am
Posts: 888
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Mark M.
Quote:
I also think though that when we (Saffas) put our routes into the international media we should be careful how we word some of our suggestions, "The bivvy is very comfy and there are 3 mats there. Don’t throw off any rocks as these can be used to shit on and then thrown off." (Snort I'm just using this as an example...) From http://www.climbing.com/exclusive/featu ... ndex6.html
As a foreigner, I read this and think:


Indeed well put and point taken. Nevertheless the fact remains that the track record of leaving mats at Blouberg and shitting on rocks to throw off has, and probably never will, attract the LCD whereas bolts will! I mentioned before that not a single route of the three at Blouberg that I have placed bolts on has ever had an independant ascent without me present .

I certainly shall never place another bolt at Blouberg and it is too bad if nobody ever climbs those routes that I rate right up there with Astroman in Yosemite. And if they do start attracting people that shit at the base of routes I shall make it my life's work to remove those bolts and any others that are placed.

It is not the bolts, it is not the sport climbing or sport climbers. It is the attraction that bolted climbs have for the base of the pyramid of uncaring irresponsible and probably uneducated people.

There is an American saying and a movie was based on the premise: "build it and they will come" Not much difference in "build" and "bolt"


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:36 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 1168
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
Heinrich wrote:
Carlien (then my wife... ) and I may be there in September, and for pretty much one mission: YW. But if my work allows it, i'm there most definitely!!!


great! would be awesome to have you guys here! will try to get hold of snort so that he can witness the 1st free onsight ascent of prime time..... no pressure :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:15 am 
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Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 5:39 pm
Posts: 304
Location: JHB
Yip, Snort that was the point I was trying to make - we as local climbers know that certain areas (like blouberg etc.) are so remote that by leaving our steamy heap on a rock & tossing it has little influence on the environment below (and that there unlikely to be anyone below). The problem is when you publish that it sets a president for all who read it, that turfing a turd on a multi-pitch in SA is the norm. I think we all sometimes forget just how BIG the climbing world is, since our community is so small and intimate.

I appreciate your point of those routes never seeing an ascent without you present, but then (remember I'm a foreigner and have only read your article) why can't I employ the same tactics you used if I wish to open a route at the same venue? I think that is where the things get lost and I have a feeling that that is what happened at Yellowwood. Anyway, we're going in circles again...

Just to prove my point, I met a foreign guy in Oudtshoorn in December who says he opened some stuff locally (in the WC), then got shouted down for adding bolts, then sparingly bolted some sport lines in Montagu and again got shouted down for under bolting, so now he says he adds routes when he travels here but does not publish them - so we as the SA community loose out cos we don't have our house in order.

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Open hand, open mind...


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:29 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:05 am
Posts: 1
I wish people would use their proper names on these forums. stfu is a coward to insult people anonymously. All this anonymous bickering is childish and not worthy of the climbing community or the mountains we climb. When I meet climbers at the crag, gym or boulder, interactions are invariably characterised by enthusiastic comraderie, but in this forum I often find belligerence and purile self-important ego bashing. If you have a point to make, especially a controversial one, you should voice it with respect for your fellow climber and have the guts to put your name to it.
Gareth Austin


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:23 pm
Posts: 233
I've been told that many guys and gals aren't aware of the list of signatories that is being added to, in the first post of this thread. The ethics statement was constructed by Adam, Jeremy and myself. The sign-on list now looks like this...

Further Signatories:
Willem le Roux
Karl Hayden
Stephen Davis
Andy Davies
Andy Wood
Bruce Daniel
Keith James
Douw Steyn
Ross Suter
Rik de Decker
Dirk Versfeld
Paul Fatti
Carl Kritzinger
Rob Zipplies
Scarre Cilliers
Mark Berry
Anthony Hall
Mike Scott
Kevin Smith
Nic Good
Charles Edelstein
David Vallet
Andy de Klerk
Richard Behne
Tienie Versfeld
Alan Ross
Chris Lomax
John Alexander
Evan Wiercx
Ed February
Andre Vercueil
Bryant Roux
Stuart Brown
Dave Shewell

The first post will be updated as climbers sign-on.


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:47 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Posts: 721
Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
I'm impressed that 2 on the list are arch trad-line bolters...prehaps the continual talk on this forum is galvanizing some sort of repentance?


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:23 pm
Posts: 233
further signatories added to list in first post

Johnathan Gordon
Stewart Noy
Paul Schlotfeldt


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 Post subject: Re: Yellowwood Ethics
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:23 pm
Posts: 233
further signatories added to list in first post

Clinton Martinengo
Bobby Woods
David Mercer


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