Sho - well, that one is close to my heart - given how much testosterone and chest slapping is going down on this forum, I wonder if any of you realise how seriously us girl climbers might be taking this issue - rape being the potential consequence. If you guys focused half the energy ur using to bash each other on actually solving the issue I bet we'd be a bit further down the path...Hey - actually we are supposed to be on the same side - I don't think any of us want to get robbed, killed or raped, yes?

Ya know, the apartheid government had to legislatively and forcefully divide to conquer - you guys do it all by yourselves. You have all got ideas with plus and minus points (yep, even Morne and Guest). Now before I break into a heart-warming rendition of \"we shall overcome\" (lucky for u guys this is all non-verbal)...and before the \"bloody female\" comments start rolling in, Y not try to get somewhere with this?


Or maybe Im missing the point and Eric is right - you guys just do this for kicks. Megawat

I recall Scott Milton telling a story about a close call his girlfriend/partner had at a crag just outside Vegas, where I guy approached her with a gun/knife (can't remember exactly it was sometime back) and tried to get her into a vehicle. He was out climbing at the time. Fortunately she got away unscathed.

So, it does happen overseas however I would think with a lot less frequency.

_________________
Open hand, open mind...

It seems to me that South Africans feel hopeless and frustrated with what is going on in our country (in general, not just IRO climbing) and as a result we turn our frustration on each other (easy targets) instead of the real problem. Has anybody actually tried to do something constructive like email the minister of tourism or security or whatever? Or is it easier to do nothing because we have accepted that any effort is a waste of time? Have we finally been broken? (guest) or are we going to put in that effort (in a more focussed form) and see if maybe we can make a change?

So Guest: steping past all the insults(yours & mine)

With regard to crime & how it affects climbing. Its all just talk, talk, talk...but we shouldn't take any action. What sort of solution do you have in mind? Or is your point that all is lost in SA? Ehhh what is your point?

I guess, as idealistic as Guy's idea is, perhaps he is closest to a solution. We would have to create value for the people in the areas we frequent. When the people respect climbers and value our presence, then maybe things can start to change. Bottom line though is that none of us have actually grown up and lived the lives of these people. So really, none of us understand what it's like to have nothing, and to have little future in sight. There is a general pattern amongst these crime areas. All of them have a settlement nearby. This obviously means that the crime stems from there. Guy's idea of us doing something for them is good, but [1] who's really got the cash? [2] whether this works in the long run is debatable as this will need to be an ongoing bartering...it's also idealistic because not all areas are small and definable like 'boven. Think of the wave cave...or wellington's dome...I think in the end one just has to accept that alot of the places we climb at are secluded and it's just a reality.

The lady earlier, believe me, the rape issue is one of my greatest fears. No sane human could be cold to an issue like this.

There are small ways people can interact with that community - those people probably just see us as a bunch of weird pale faces with an arcane obsession with going up and down rock faces for no conceivable reason. We don't demonstrate any real acknowledgement of them so why should they care if we get taken?

Most of us probably bring in our own food, supplies etc when we come so, as it has been mentioned before, they see no real value in having us around - we don't bring a lot of money into the town. BUT we could. There are plenty of excellent little spaza shops in the t-ship. Once went on a Sunday night to source fresh veggies (accompanied a brave friend when he suggested it) and Im telling you, the freshest were in the spaza's which opened after 8 on a Sunday for us, and were totally cheap! Ok, so it takes a deep breath to go in, but if it becomes an established thing, the locals might realise its worth not pissing the climbers off too much. And what about picking up a bored looking kid and paying him R50 to watch your back for a couple of hours? Early warning, not physical protection...

And maybe we should be communicating to the authorities and all n sundry who have an email adi. I'm going to make a point of going to say howzit at the police station every time Im there, reminding them they have an obligation in the area.

How about setting up a workshop for some of the locals to try their hand at climbing so they can see what its all about? Boredom is probably one of the biggest problems in that place! All this builds relationships which is what is singularly lacking in boven. Im first up to volunteer if someone wanted to do this with me.

Guest, apologies if I have assumed u are male, or that guys don't fully contemplate the concept of rape, it just seemed too easy to be mudslinging around the issues. Why don't you invent a name so we can stop calling you by a passive concept. Megawat

yes, I definitly agree that most outsiders to climbing think that we're just rich folk with nothing better 2 do than go up and down. I also believe an understanding of the sport and a solid involvement with it would help climbers get some respect. We cant go around blaming people. My worry is there might just never be enough to go around.

In any case, I choose to remain anonymous because I don't see the need for anyone to know who they're ranting at. Let's just say I have alot vested in this country and so issues like this really get to me, which is why I posted in reply to Morne's initial inane comment. People still think that authority and agression can solve things. True cave man mentality. People have got a long way to go in this country with regards to respecting one another. Derek's little jibe at me was also laughable. calling me a racist is really funny. If only he knew! ha ha.

Guest u try and negotiate with criminals and see how far u get.
Has it ever crossed your narrow little mind that some people actually
want to rob,steal and rape because its easier for them and they dont give a s***t.There are peoples own labourers that attack them couse they seen as a soft target.U line a bunch of criminals up and make them understand your sport.Just dont tell them where u gunna go climbing next cause you will be there first target.When u got a gun to your head then try and explain your sport and even offer them a job if they leave u alone.
The only persone that is inane on this post is you.Leave all your worries at home if you want and wait for the government to solve your problems.Criminals will go for the least resistance and that sounds like u.
Go back to sleep and keep dreaming of your perfect little world.

Hey Saywhat! That was so super constructive a post - not only did you tear down one of guest's first useful emails, but you offered NO SOLUTION whatsoever. Hey Im playing devil's advocate here, but I think guest adds something useful in at least he has given some thought to what he puts down on the forum.

Sure South Africa is just a playground for a bunch of sick-minded criminals who like nothing better than to rape and pillage away! Then why the hell are we all still here???

Crime is committed so often by a few hard case individuals, who have their communities either under a sway of fear, or apathy. I have personally met people who have done jail time for robbery with a gun, who EDUCATED themselves while behind bars, and came out and made meaningful contributions to South Africa. The guy I know is a really decent oke whose circumstances (which were a lot harder than most of us have ever had to get through) led him to crime, but who salvaged himself at the end of it. Don't just dismiss people you know nothing about. THAT is narrow minded - buy a dictionary.

The disease here is entrenched - South Africans are so damn happy (and always have been - historically) to sit back and talk about how bad things are without doing a single constructive thing about it. In 10 years of freedom and democracy, we still don't really try to understand each other.

Im not talking about walking up to a criminal with a bloody daisy to stick in his gun, Im saying get in touch with the people who may have the ability to help catch the buggers or at least discourage them - the communities from whence they come.

Why don't you channel some of that fury Saywhat and use it to think of a solution rather than another insult to guest. Who by the way now has me totally intrigued as to who he/she is?? More clues please!

I understand after how many posts guest has finally tried to make a valid point but how many posts did he try and tear down in the process.He started with his completely unessary rudeness and now he wants people to make some sence out of him.I agree that u can try and change the outlook of a criminal but never there mind.U can give them a purpose if u think u owe it to them but i would never turn my back to them.I'm not talking about petty theft but robbing and rape is much more serious.U find some criminals a job and c if that will change there minds.The first week they loose there job they will be back out robbing and whatever else.Why should we be negotiating with criminals and try helping them find jobs.We should be helping the innocent rather then caring about the criminals.I dont think we can change guests outlook much either.

ummm, SayWhat?, you might need to go back and read Guy's post where he states that we should get the community involved. Not the criminals! If we could line the criminals up for belay practice then ya might as well just slap cuff on them while you have them all in one place.

You say \"Why should we be negotiating with criminals and try helping them find jobs.We should be helping the innocent rather then caring about the criminals.\" Let me ask you this 'Saywhat?' you narrow minded person...what sets you apart from a homeless tramp? only one thing, you still have your dignity. Now in the same breath, if you were cast into similar circumstances...ie: really poor, bad upbringing, no money, no education, no future...surely your natural instinct would be to adapt or die??

I'm just saying that the options are that we fence off and protect these areas we want to climb in, or, we have to get the community involved and as guy suggested, we create benefit for these people even in a tiny way and hopefully they will help with turning people in. It could even extend so far as we create a \"reward kitty\" which is used to help catch these criminals. There is crime everywhere tho, so for sure it seems a tad bleak.

Anyway, Saywhat? you can smooch my 0, k? and megawat,a bottle of energade to you if you guess who I am. But you wont, because I'm not even from this planet.

\"such hostility, aaah, the white male south africans.\" always quick to launch an attack\" is this not a racist statment? To me it is. That makes you, guest, a racist. Even if you are white. Your attacks are also quick & hostile(check 1st post), thus you must also be white & male.

But true story... I'm South African, white, male, hostile & quick to launch an attack.

Guest, I did apreciate your actule point in the last few posts.

Guest ... you have to be Weasilboy. R.. ......h

Legend has it... A few years back a school bus was completly stripped while parked on the Hog during a climbing weekend. James Kantoor, then mayor of Hogsback village, met with some sort of mafios chief in the valley below. All the vehical parts and kit were immediatly returned. Since then there have been very few incidences of crime against climbers. Sounds a bit too good to be true...

Guest!!! you pathetic, i dont give a f*ck who the hell you are. who should care? you have gone completely of the topic. Cant belive you even climb, never met a \"jerk off climber\" before in my life. it was a simple and valid point, that everyone else understood. have you nothing better to do than write pathetic, childish comments all day. carm down stop wankin so hard. For f*** sakes join a chat site.

Lots of hard work has been done in Boven. This includes working with the community and getting them to cooperate with the Police to hand over crimanals. .The Local Goverment has got involved. They employed locals to stand gaurd at regular tourist sites. This has helped , even if a little and for a short while.

In Shongweni, the local Reserve has worked very hard with the local community, building them schools and stuff. Every visitor to the reserve pays R1 extra which goes to the local community projects. A special army task force was set up, and acted in the area specificaly to try and arrest a group of crimanals. I think they caught them.

This has not elimanated all crim, and it is still not 100% secure, But It would be unfair to say thay nobody is doing anything.

All this action has not solved the problem, but it is working towards it.

The bottom line in my opinion is that until every South Africa has a home and job, there will be crime. I believe that what we can do, is to try and not make ourself targets. By this I mean don't carry lots of cash and valuables when climbing. Crimanals only mugg, because they are making good money out of it.

Lots of hard work has been done in Boven. This includes working with the community and getting them to cooperate with the Police to hand over crimanals. .The Local Goverment has got involved. They employed locals to stand gaurd at regular tourist sites. This has helped , even if a little and for a short while.

In Shongweni, the local Reserve has worked very hard with the local community, building them schools and stuff. Every visitor to the reserve pays R1 extra which goes to the local community projects. A special army task force was set up, and acted in the area specificaly to try and arrest a group of crimanals. I think they caught them.

This has not elimanated all crim, and it is still not 100% secure, But It would be unfair to say thay nobody is doing anything.

All this action has not solved the problem, but it is working towards it.

The bottom line in my opinion is that until every South Africa has a home and job, there will be crime. I believe that what we can do, is to try and not make ourself targets. By this I mean don't carry lots of cash and valuables when climbing. Crimanals only mugg, because they are making good money out of it.

Shot for the correction Dave, good to know there are some active people out there already. Perhaps a bit of a groundswell of thinking and action in support of those people will get things moving faster and more effectively. I for one refuse to back off boven, tho I will certainly be going there with some plan to stay safe.