he ant, will go remove any might-be-offending comments. obviously everything was said in jest but would not want to risk any goodwill whatsoever. mmmmm, not sure that you speak for "most of the climbing franternity"?? i'm sure there's a lot of guys out there that has pretty strong feelings about this.

i grew up in a farming community where access was generally available to the locals for hunting & fishing. the unwritten ethos was simply "leave the place better than what you found it" and people that did not respect that was quickly removed from the welcome list. the general spirit of hospitality was carried over to us by my parents: people were always welcome in our house, we always went out of our way to include others in fun activities etc.

the point is not to brag about superior hospitality, but really to comment on a worldview that decides how "open" certain resources are for the rest of the people. landownership will be one of the big issues of our time (at least in SA). in many european (and other countries) there are no / little "strict privacy" to mountainous regions, beaches, lakes and rivers - it is recognised that natural beauty is there to be enjoyed by the population as a whole and nobody should be excluded. this does not result in "anything goes" but rather appreciation & understanding of the environment that gets more people active in preserving it. and its not getting trampled since the masses prefers malls & movies in any case.

i profoundly respect the landowners rights in the boschkloof-issue and will not transgress against their will. and since we can only speculate what the real reasons were for closing the kloof there is little use in debating that. it does however leave a sense of sadness that a place of such beauty (and excellent climbing) is now off limits to people that truly appreciate it and that will go to some lenghts to protect it.

okay, that's my sunday morning sermon. thanks & good luck to the guys that are trying to renegotiate access.

I obviously joked mostly, but if anyone wants me to remove my previous post, I will. I wasn't joking about wanting to know what's going on. Surely we need to know to prevent it from happening again at least. I was also serious about letting people who care help in which ever way they can, rather than alienate them.

Hi Guys,

The reason for the closure is the water getting polluted (see page 1 of this thread). We are speaking to the land owner.
Thanks for the offer to help, we'll call on you should the need arise. For the moment please refrain from going into the kloof.

As a Montagu local I can assure you I want to see the kloof open as much as anybody.
I'm not going to go into details about this issue. As Ant points out 'These things are not 'forms to be filled in' - they require the forming and mending of relationships and understandings.'

Thanks,
Justin

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Climb ZA - Administrator

very good point!


for the life of me i cannot imagine HOW the water is getting polluted and that is why there is very little credibility attached to it being the real reason. not trying to drag it out of anybody; just supporting shorti's point.

to push this in another direction: i have not been in keurkloof but apparently there is quite a bit of undeveloped potential in the mid grades - ????? how can one get involved in helping to develop more routes? i'm definitely keen to contribute both financially and doing the actual bolting.

By staying out of the kloof right now, it is being prevented (I know this is not the answer you are looking for).

To push this in another direction:
Yes, lots of potential in Keur Kloof. WRT new routes it shouldn't be a problem...
Learn how to bolt; how to drill, how to place bolts & where to place them - (Perhaps the MCSA can run a course on this sometime!?)
I'll also get the official say on access/bolting in the kloof - I should have this info by the end of the week.

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Shouldn't lasting access be secured in existing areas and proposed areas before people started getting drills out and going for it? What's to stop other areas going the way of Bosch Kloof after hundreds of man-hours (person-hours?) and thousands of Rands have been spent equipping routes? Come to think of it, when was the last formal agreement with the Bosch Kloof owner before he/she/they removed access? They should be liable for the cost of the bolts and time if they are going back on an agreement.

If the above has been given proper consideration, I'd definitely be interested in attending a bolting workshop and then putting something back into the sport-climbing community. Just say when and where.

RE: Access secured before - Yes.

RE: Liable for costs - In this instance, there was never any agreement in place + I doubt any land owner would agree to be liable for such costs.

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Justin please elucidate further on the water pollution issue. Are they talking about the tiny stream running down the kloof itself? Is this even a perennial stream? If it is indeed this tiny stream then how exactly is it being polluted? What evidence have they produced that this is actually pollution and not simply silt. What evidence is there to prove that this 'pollution' is a direct result of climbers being in kloof?

To have one of the best crags in the country (imho Bosch crag has some of the best endurance passages I have ever climbed) simply whisked away at the whim of the landowner without adequate explanation or reason is very irksome!
Its really sad to see such a fine kloof with such a long history (one of the first Montagu crags ever to be developed [bolted]) of climbing disappear so easily.

I sincerely hope that the cause of this 'pollution' can be pinpointed and this kloof opened again soon.

Since water pollution is the proposed problem, would an entrance fee not quickly facilitate the purchase of an efficient water purification system?

The water volume in that stream is seemingly minimal and surely filtration is a solution? A sand filter system for removing silt/larger particular matter for water going into the storage tank coupled to a further carbon filter system for the house water which would remove everything else. We treat water from a farm dam in the same way and it works a treat.

Any experts on filtration systems out there who could give an indication of the cost of a suitable system?

Just a thought...

Bosch Kloof is a sponge soaking up potential. If closure means Joe-Legoland starts to explore, then its a good thing. There are other kloofs & crags.

Kinda with Xmod here... why all the cloak and dagger secrecy around the issue? If people know the details, let the community know.

TBH, I didn't even notice a stream in the kloof when I was there...

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Climb ZA - Administrator

With due respect, we're not all members of the MCSA and this doesn't only concern the MCSA and its members, but all climbers.

Oh boy, here I go... (dons his MCSA hat).

The MCSA represents the largest group of climbers in the country. If you remember (or not) they ensured continued access to a climbing area called Rocklands (so that anyone can go climbing there).

Land owners (almost always) prefer to deal with an organisation rather than an individual... this is better/useful for many reasons.
And because of these many reasons, we are speaking to the land owner under the auspices of the MCSA.

Now, if you think about this a lot there is no need for you to do anything (at this time). So we ask you to be patient and in the mean time perhaps go look for new lines/crags (The MCSA has a drill that can be loaned).

The MCSA will do its best to remedy the access issue.

p.s. before Stu Brown left town, we started bolting a new crag... got a few more things to do there before we open it up including some path management - hope to have it opened up soon.

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The reason an additional (no climbing) sign was put up, was because the first (private Property) sign was being ignored. There is currently a guard at the entrance to the (closed) kloof.

Nothing is being hidden from: Non MCSA members or anyone else (the reason for the closure is above). To answer your question (and probably any other questions you might have), please re-read Ant's post above.

If you're still unhappy, come down to Montagu and you can go sort the access out with the land owner yourself (and if you screw up the access, be it on your head). There is a strong possibility that the kloof will remain closed indefinitely.

p.s. the landowner is aware of this thread.

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Proze,

I don't know if you realise this but the MCSA
1) has been instrumental in securing access to crags throughout South Africa for the past century or so, and
2) is our only hope in these negotiations.

And, as Ant said, re-obtaining access to this kloof, or any crag wherever for that matter, will happen only with good and friendly relationships with the land owner. And, as Justin highlighted, land owners would rather talk to organisations (such as the MCSA) with a known history, rather than over-zealous individuals.

For anyone who cares to listen: trust the MCSA in this - regardless of whether they succeed or fail to reach a positive agreement with the land owner, they are our only chance.

That's great! Then he/she can see that we're not palookas, just climbers that want to appreciate the great South African landscape and would like to know what the problem is so we can all do our part to solve it!! They should register and partake in the discussion, perhaps?

Proze, everyone else so keen on "solving the problem": Have you considered that the owner has from his standpoint solved the problem already?

Let Justin & whoever else is also involved do their thing. I'm sure adding to the pressure does not do the cause any good.

What 1dog said!

How dofff can one be...its the owner's property, he can do as he pleases, right? You can't go with a toitoi attitude and demand any asnwers, that only works in other parts of SA!

A humble 'ask nicely' attitude might work. Just imagine someone going to your home and demanding to camp on your lawn - would you say yes, just because he demanded it?

Its so cool that Justin even bothers to try and negotiate, and I'm sure the efforts of the MCSA will be the best we can do re this.
Lets wait and see, and explore new areas a bit.
Some lame ar$es are kind of making the rest of us look bad here...

I'm not even a MCSA member, but I am very aware of their efforts to further our sport. Thanx!
And thanx Justin.
Pls keep us posted

'High horse' if I don't 'toitoi' with the masses?
Thats ok with me then...
yeah!

Something to note:

OMO: There is no 'The MCSA'

The MCSA is a vehicle for mountaineers and climbers to use in their efforts on any topic - access, expedition funding, anchor replacement, conservation, mountain huts, search and rescue etc etc.
Individuals take up each of these tasks, typically bringing different skills to the table over different time periods (typically short time periods!) The MCSA provides structure, and can separate individuals and their egos from the problems at hand that affect the greater group.

Literature on negotiation theory says:
- Focus on interests, not positions.
Many of the proposals in this thread focus on positions - whether who does or doesn't have the right to do x or y.
With positions, egos invarably get pinned down the table too - particularly with climbers, but remember with the landowner too! This eliminates any room to negotiate. By focusing on interests both parties will be better at working something out.

My opinion on 'lack of details on the forum':
Landowners have a sovereign right to control access - thats the law and it isn't going to change. No amount of adjudication or rational arguing, with the landowner in person, amongst ourselves on this or any other forum, or in courts is going to solve anything.
This is about the mending and forming of relationships and understandings, and it is felt for various reasons that Justin is the best person to do this, on behalf of all of us (aka 'The MCSA')

NB: This thread is about access at bosch kloof, if you want to take me to task about the role of the MCSA generally then make a separate post please.

... looking at the thread again -Justin has been quite good at keeping us in the loop about developments albeit inconclusive.

Justin thanks for working at this for everyone!

Ditto!
Thanks, Justin!

I've got to agree with ant. Land owners owe the climbing community nothing!

That is why organisations like the MCSA are so valuable, because they own land and ensure it remains available and undeveloped.
If I owned an area that had climbing it would not be available to the general public. Simply because of the poor attitude of some petulant climbers who feel that their rights extend to include privately owned land!

Lets show the man (land owner) some respect for the land he has bought with his money and is trying to preserve, in one way or another!

And what's with the abuse aimed at Justin for the "vague" details regarding the closure. If that's the reason given by the land owner what's he (Justin) to do about it! Make assumptions and jump to conclusions?

seems like i was right..... as usual

couldn't agree more! we need to keep our eye on the ball here and do everything we can to mend whatever has been broken.

as to the issue of landowners not owing climbers anything: that is true, but it does not stop us to make an appeal to (re)consider the issues. relationship & understanding means you have to look at both (or multiple) points of view. sure, legally the landowner can tell us all to buzz off but it does not make it right (unless there is a "right" reason) - legally i owe poor people nothing but does that make it morally "right" for me to just shut them out? and neither does a poor person have the "right" to just take what is mine. within the context of "rights" there remains the unregulated issues of community, relationship, the greater good and all that blah. i know these situations are way complex, but healthy debate is healthy! and this is not just some random piece of land - it has a long history and a great deal of effort & $$$s has gone into deveolping it as a very cool climbing area.

finally, many thanks to justin who is doing the graft on this! i understand some of the frustration (at least my own) because i'm just itching to try and help gain access again

on to keurkloof - are there any potential access problems? why should we refrain from bolting there for now?

Hi

I have worked as a microbiologist for a commercial testing laboratory. I am wondering what does the farmer mean by pollution. Does he mean 'not suitable for drinking' or does he mean heavy contamination usually caused by being downstream from a "poorly maintained" sewerage plants or squatter camps. Either way I am not sure how climbers can cause this, unless you are crapping into the river itself. To find out you could take a sample and send it to a lab like the SABS micro in Rosebank or Swift in Kenilworth. Its cost about R300 for the drinking water quality and R150 for a E.coli test. I am not sure of the prices now. I have quit to go climbing.

um, how about we got explore the chip on your shoulder a bit? Maybe some excellent multipitch climbing there?


Just joking, mate. I think its becoming too serious for me...

I seriously hope we can/may climb in those kloofs again one day soon. Twin Fins still have some of the best 25 I've ever climbed...

Sefton, thanks for your comments, funding has been been made available for testing of the water. In this case, the water is for human consumption and there are no settlements in the area.

Keur Kloof info coming shortly (it's happy news

@ Proze, Obama called... when you're done sorting out Bosch Kloof, he has asked if you wouldn't mind nipping over to the middle East to quickly sort out the whole Israeli / Palestine thing. You can give him a call on 555 1234 and he'll send the Learjet over to pick you up

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Hyuk, hyuk. Good news about the good news about Keurkloof. Looking forward to a bolting howto/workshop there!

Posted on behalf of Andy Wood:

The issue of the closure of Boschkloof has been of deep concern to the climbing community in general and the Mountain Club especially. A number of efforts have been made to approach the owner and, without going into too much detail, this is an issue that is not likely to be easily or speedily resolved. Please know that we are working on the problem and that it is receiving serious attention.

I recently spent a few days exploring Keur Kloof and surrounding areas. There is an enormous amount of untouched rock in the Montagu areas just waiting to be explored. We need to look around for fresh areas and open new routes.

Andy Wood
Chairman
Cape Town Section
MCSA

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Climb ZA - Administrator