Heinrich it is not about whether Traddies are better people or more responsible than sport climbers. It is that sport climbing makes environmentally sensitive areas more accessible to more people. Go read the history of Yosemite and the Dolomites and then go climb in these destroyed areas. Both these areas were developed more than 40 years ago by then traditionalist climbers that bludgeoned the rock to pieces with ironmongery including rivets, bolts and pegs. Read the story of how Royal Robbins had an on-going ethical war with Warren Harding about bolting most of the route called The Wall of the Early Morning Light.

These routes now attract hundreds of thousands of people each year who over-run the crags. Both venues are effectively sport climbing areas in the sense that every tricky move on the popular routes is either easy to protect with trad gear or has a fixed piece. And the same could be said of many of the routes at Spitzkoppe which also attracts thousands of climbers to the bolted routes while the trad routes like Royal Flush are rarely climbed. Every stance of every major wall route on El Cap has 3 or more bolts at each stance.

By limiting bolts (and other fixed gear such as pegs) off routes one increases the commitment required which amounts to increasing the perceived risk of doing a route and that is the best way to limit the amount of people in the area which by default decreases the environmental impact. It really is that simple. In so doing one also maintains "adventure" which to me is the essence of life. And if anyone thinks that that is elitist then they will ruin their children when they have them. Life without adventure is sterile. I maintain that if you want a lasting relationship with your spouse a basic ingredient is to find on-going adventures all the time and that is a recipe that has worked with Margaret and I for 25 years.

Also go look at http://www.wonderland.com where there is a move afoot to develop Rocky Drift in Boven, a sport climbing area. Development in the area can only create jobs for the many impoverished people that live around there of whom many resort to theft of climbers gear to survive. This is comparable to sport vs trad debate. People can go camp at Boven or bunker with Gustav but that requires a lot more commitment than having your condo there on a golf estate or whatever. Sport climbing like holiday condo developments simply brings more people.

As for the Magaliesberg: despite some people making a mess, the Magaliesberg is by and large preserved better than most nature areas in the world and that's because people numbers are limited. Bolting has been effectively banned there for all the reasons I mentioned in this post and before.

And believe me there are many "mind blowing" lines that do lend themselves to being bolted in the Magalies.

By the way, I do not believe that bolts are inherently safer than pegs. There are bolts failing in SA all the time. One would always be circumspect of any peg placed by someone else and that caution makes the peg at least as "safe" as a bolt that one tends to trust with abandon. And way too many bolts have no back-up where as most peg placements do.

Gollum: About 1980 Kevin Smith and I went out and climbed on a crag that looks similar to the one in your pic. I recall the rock being OK and with lots and lots of potential. The climbing and rock was similar to the crag above Harrismith.

Good man and keep it going...

The crag may not be world class but the adventure must be...

well said!

a lot is said about the "bad" impact of sport crags but what about the "good"? making a place like tranquilitas viable with spin-offs for eco tourism and employment is a very good thing! ditto for de pakhuys etc.

both Bronkies and Silvermine are well managed and clean despite the amount of traffic. when people mess they like to do it in secret; the presence of good "law abiding" climbers will normally prevent the unruly bunch's mischief. shortibrah, what's the odds that somebody will take a cr@p at the base of a bronkies climb while you are there? even seemonster is cleaning-up his sigarette stubs when we're around

my reference to hallucigenic is more to do with a long crag of single pitch only routes - a classic sport venue. but any cool trad lines should be left bolt free imho.

PS: the purpose of this thread is to identify potential new crags (sport / trad / boulder) and to hopefully get the wheels rolling for new development. please do not let this end-up as another long sport-vs-trad-&-what-is-wrong-with-the-world thread.

obrigado!

Spot-on. I won't really know what world class is like, having been only at 5 different crags, with only 3 of them of any importance/status (Drakensberg, Montagu and Swinburne), but the adventure was certainly top-notch!

We had some extreme luck - we alternated leads and it just so happened that my friend - being a better climber - got the difficult pitch which I would have struggled with, and we encountered some very strategically placed ledges and cubbyholes for belay stations!

Here is a pic of the crux pitch.

_________________
"I have no more friends, and my nuts are too small!"

Without wanting to perpetuate another endless trad vs sport argument, its worth noting that Snort (finally!) admits that its not just bolts themselves that destroy areas but increased human traffic beyond the capacity natural area is able to handle and recover from. In fact neither Yosemite nor the Dolomites have ever been sought after as must-go places by sport climbers, so that, one can only conclude that these areas were over-run and destroyed by trad climbers! You cannot assume that sport climbing development will automatically lead to the destruction of an area, Hellfire has survived quite nicely despite having a fair number of sport routes, the main influencing factor is accessibility, Hellfire is just that bit further from the car hence it gets less traffic.

Clearly control over the numbers of ppl visiting an area is the main contributing factor to denegration of a natural resource. On the note of resources, what good is a crag if it is never climbed? How much 'adventure' is there in looking wistfully up at these faces from the car, compared to actually missioning up to them and clawing your way up unexplored terrain? Obviously getting out there is where its at.

Having said that, in light of the developments at Bosch Kloof I would be very circumspect about investing a lot of time and money in bolting a new crag without some serious written committment from the landowner guaranteeing continued access. Even this can change when the property changes hands unless access agreements have been included in the deeds of the property itself. But these considerations are for after you have found that perfect crag, first comes adventure (the stuff of life!) and getting up to the rock with toprope gear and an open mind for the possibilities you may find as well as a very critical appraisal of the rock quality.

Not all crags are going to make great sport venues, you have to assess the accessibility, range of grades, type of climbing etc etc (Think close to car and city with imppeccable steep rock). So a lot of thought and groundwork (negotiation with landowners) needs to go into the development of a new crag. But never let this stop you exploring! Congrats to those ppl here who have stepped off the well trodden path and found new stuff!! You guys rock! Remember that there is still a ton of potential in established areas as well, you may not have to look that far to find that perfect project! Look at the mushrooming of routes in around Montagu over the last few years - more an indication of a lively scene with lots of route potential than the stagnant picture our upcountry brethren believe is here.

Last words: New rock / new routes = good!
There simply arent enough climbers in SA to cause the devastation Snort talks of, get out there and explore! Dont hold the kids back Snort!

this is a picture of seweweekspoort - looks amazing but very far off the beaten track

Pillar just south of Wolfberg arch on the way to the Wolfberg cracks.
Was there years ago, any idea if it has been climbed? The big pointy bit was freestanding for almost half its height if I recall correctly.

I did quite a few routes on those cliffs some years ago and they are written up in the MCSA journal around 2000.

Thanks. Will go and scratch around in my journals.

One day in October '09 Tony Dick, Snort, Bruce Daniel and I were en route to Krakadouw and Tony mentioned Mok's crag, saying that in Gauteng or Natal it would probably be a popular sport crag. It probably would be.

In reading many of these posts I can't help but feel most guys are missing the plot. So many issues raised are sideshows that simply distract from the single important issue. Litter, access, people numbers, iron-mongery etc are not issues of general principle but secondary consequences. And highly variable from place to place.

Bouldering, sport-climbing, trad climbing, ice climbing, alpinism, etc are all brilliant. Even rugby, soccer, business, university, game-viewing, families. Silvermine, Boven, Magaliesberg, Cederberg are all wonderful climbing destinations. The issue is appropriatness.

We would be missing some great things if Boven, The Hole, Silvermine, Paarl Rocks, Milner, Montagu, Rocklands, etc were not bolted sport climbing destinations. These places provide incredible sport climbing and would be unclimbed and/or unloved if they were not bolted. Man I'm glad they're bolted.

Krakadouw, Tafelberg, Wolfberg, Klein Winterhoek, Slanghoek, Castle Rocks, Yellowwood and Table Mountain (Magalies kloofs, Blouberg, Towerkop?) would be destroyed by sport routes. The supreme adventures that we've been seeking on these incredible cliffs would be lost.

Bottom line: some places are ideal sport climbing destinations and the routes should be bolted; some places are ideal trad climbing destinations and bolts and pegs should be rare. The odd place kind of works as a combination but is generally poorer for the lack of focus. Where crags are appropriate for development as sport venues - go for it!

Hilton Davies

Bingo!

The voice of reason.

Amen!

Hilton and Ant, whether places deserve or are appropriate for sport route development is not my point or what is at stake here. Access and the environment is at stake. Period.

And anyway you cut it, sport climbing and now even bouldering attracts many more people than trad to any given venue in SA and the US. You make the point yourself that the places would be "unloved" without bolts.

So bolt a crag and they will come and destroy the environment and access will be lost or limited in no time at all.

A very good argument could be made for putting up many more via ferratas up TM. There are at present no less than 3 routes to the top that have ironmongery. Why on earth not? One cannot make a rational argument not to have them except perhaps where there are existing trad routes. But if you do, the place will be over-run as Half Dome Chain route is. And then it is the same old story......Blah Blah

By decreasing the commitment of doing climbing you inherently kill the adventure and you attract many many more people that results in it all being spoiled for everyone, one way or another.

There is no shortage of sport climbing venues that still are not fully developed. Go finish them first...

I am with Snort here, but would like to add something. I made a point earlier on in this thread. It didn't surprise me in our day and age of consume, develop and grow at all costs that no one raised an eyebrow to what I said. There seems to be a general agreement "out there" among those who post on this forum that we are entitled to develop whatever we feel like, and that the sentiment is that is is "good" to do so. My point was that we do have a choice to develop crags or not. If we really appreciate the environment (and as climbers we interact with that environment in a rather unique and special way), then wouldn't we actively choose NOT to develop everything in site (we know we can do that, so no question of our capability but that doesn't mean we should). There are plenty of ways of getting your kicks in life without having to utilise and exploit every pristine piece of the biosphere in the name of human development - recreational (sport, trad, bouldering, hiking, whatever) or otherwise.

The recent great example of the action being taken by the Magalies Protection Association with the support of the MCSA is a great illustration of what's possible. As climbers we need to consider our own actions in the mountains, not only get righteous and uptight whenever there is a greedy developer wanting to encroach on a wilderness area.

To illustrate further what I'm saying: For those of you who followed the climate change negotiations in Copenhagen and were resigned about why they were such a failure (reason being they were founded on self-interest and a blame-game), there was a lesser known declaration drafted in Bolivia at the same time proclaiming the rights of mother earth (http://pwccc.wordpress.com/programa/), and formulation of a legal declaration to protect it. Why? Because we are all downstream of the choices we make.

Stephen indeed....

Nice to hear another voice out there saying that "just because we can does not mean that we should"!

And if "we can and we do" then surely it is better for the environment to raise the level of commitment needed to access these sensitive places.

The commitment needed to climb Everest these days is a big fat cheque, either your own or a sponsor's. The commitment to climb a sport route is a rope, a few draws, harness boots, chalk bag and a belay bunny.

The commitment to climb even a relatively easy route in the Magaliesberg, never mind a big wall, requires years of application and experience and an experienced partner too. And nobody will sponsor you!

There really is a difference.... And that difference limits people which limits the impact on the environment.

And I will go so far to say that you need a lot more desire and commitment to do well at trad climbing than sport (I do both) and it follows that if anyone puts more of themselves into any endeavour they will most likely care more about their environment than someone who does not.

There is a cliche in English one can apply: Easy come, easy go.

SNORT / stephen - it seems to me you guys are arguing the extremes to make a point which is only good if you counter the other-side-of-the-coin extremes. and there will always be examples of things blowing-up, but it does not mean it is general.
in general:
no sport venue i'm aware off in south africa is currently completely overrun and being destroyed in the process. you get the odd weekend where there are just too many people at a popular place but climbers' inclination is then to go find a spot where there is enough space - a self-solving problem.
developing more crags does not mean there suddenly pops-up a bunch of new climbers. if anything, new crags will spread the existing (small) climber base and lower the environmental impact.
access closures that i'm aware off has more to do with the inconsiderate actions of the few than the trampling effect of masses. boschkloof is unfortunate in that water got polluted, which probably had nothing to do with climbers in the 1st place.
in the long run climbing might mushroom in south africa and then we might have real problems like those mentioned in the US and europe. right now i just do not see those issues being a real threat for other than a few select places like table mountain.
the more climbers the more lobbying power we have to protect and preserve natural areas.

overall i think hilton hit the nail on the head. and it certainly does not mean that we have to run out and develop every piece of rock out there; but there are many positives to developing new crags. as with many things in life, i think it is important that we find the right balance here.

lastly, i think there is a certain element of creativity & adventure to find & develop new climbing areas (sport, trad & boulder). each generation will have pioneers that are keen to do just that and they will do it, no matter how many existing areas. i fully agree that we should adopt "just because we can does not mean we should" - better to have a sound culture within which development can happen than to try and kill it.

Hey snort, nothing personal, but you lambast whats happened on the chain route, half dome, yosemite. But at the same time you went there with your family and then boast about your kids being the youngest to climb it????? That doesn't quite add up to me. I also have kids, and must admit if I could take my son (age 9) up an awsome, safe (because of chains etc) route up TM I would??? Not that i think there sould be routes like that??? There souldn't, but if there where I would go. Gees like it, it all starts to get foggy after a while hey?

Yaaaawn,

We're poisoning the oceans.
Polluting the air.

We are killing off all the wildlife or sticking them in ever smaller encampments, surrounding our planet with space debris while waging war over ethnicity and oil.
Chopping up prestine rainforest to turn it into farms.
Chopping up farms to turn it into gated estates.

Uncle George Double-ew even had plans to extending humanities influence to Mars and leaving more bits of spacecraft behind . (How's that going by the way?)

There are piles of bodies and empty oxygen tanks on the slopes of the mighty Everest, and here debate rages once again on the pros and cons of a couple of bolts, which will be used by maybe 500 people resident in RSA.




........Forck it, tomorrow I'm hiking up TM with my drill and slapping a stance on Jacobs Ladder.
While I'm at it I may just rap down Roulette and stick a line of bolts there too.

Now my question:
Other than lame online threats, and continuing the debate at tedium and pointing out that bolting is banned on TM. (So much for them handy rap anchors, hey?....)
Other than that, how will you be able to stop me?

What is the policing mechanism that one can employ to control bolting?

On the other side of the coin:
Should a bolter. Any bolter, irk me enough, how will you stop me from chopping Sickle Moon and then Sterling Silver just to get even?

Why not? It's all going to be over in 6 months anyway....


Good question Snort, aren't you sorta advertising to the LCD to follow suit?

I can see the points in both sides of the argument, but quite frankly i don't care much. I do however think this threadjack is unfair and I also believe these fiercely defended (seemingly opposite) principles are the roots or seeds for jihad. It's all the same, the only difference is how far you're willing to take it. I have to agree with Marshall here: a little less conversation and some more action - it's all that really counts.

There, the big talker has spoken......

I see lots of talk and lots of whining in these threads that always debate the antics of this stuff. I am honestly quite tired of seeing one person whine here and then in another thread there is the identical type of whine and yet another a few months/weeks later. Everyone jumps back in and we all find ourselves waiting to read about the next load of hassles about bolting and tradding and this and that and the next thing and the previous thing that was in thread x about topic y.

The more that I look at these things the more I want to just say that climbing in South Africa is brilliant from both a trad and a sport side. I have climbed some very hard trad lines and some amazing sport routes of the highest caliber. This country absolutely needs more of both styles of climbing. Who's to say that the next king line isn't waiting for all of us just around some corner waiting to be developed? If there is an amazing crag with good access that would allow for sport climbers to enjoy it, then why not?

Look at Wigwam: a brand new crag that Andrew and co. found and developed. NOW this is the premier hardman crag within 120km of PTA and JHB. Almost all of the routes are 5 star lines. If there would have been pages and pages of debate about whether or not to develop and someone said "no" then we wouldn't have one of the most special places I've ever had the pleasure of climbing at. Each person who goes there takes care of the landscape there as we have clean drinking water from the stream and a single-file trail that no one deviates from.

There will be pros and cons to every side of every debate, for every wigwam I'm sure that you guys will be able to throw something back in my face that went the other way and now someone says is "trashed".

One question I'd like to ask is this: in what state is rocklands? Rocklands is the most internationally renowned and highly traveled climbing area in Southern Africa. I have not been there much, only 2 or three days in total but it looked absolutely amazing. From what I have heard from other climbers it tends to remain that way, year after year. There are bolts there, granted it is more of a bouldering destination (that may be the euphemism of the year) but it remains unmarred and damaged. One is required to have a permit to climb in Rocklands and I think that might help with keeping the place safe and eco-friendly.

Wave Cave in Shongweni is gorgeous, has bolts everywhere and is better for it. I've never climbed in such a unique and special place as the cave. I wish that it were a little safer to be there, but do you know what cannot be found anywhere: litter. The cave and surrounding area is spotless. The trails are beautifully kept. Everyone walks in single file and respects the environment.

It is possible to seriously develop an area and keep it amazing! Remember that!

_________________
I hate this real world place... I'd be more than happy to live out there rather...

If you read my argument carefully it will add up. Yosemite as I said before on many occasions is in essence a sport climbing venue for the popular routes. Most of the aid routes opened as A3 or A4 have fixed pieces and are A0 or A1 to do. So as a whole it is a LCD kinda place.

And I have indicated in every forum that I do sport climb and doing LCD climbing is as compelling to me as it is to anyone and gymnastic it is but hardly adventurous. I train once or twice a week at CityROCK and LCD gym that I partly own!

My attitude is that the more you drill the more environmental degradation occurs including now the Mexican Gulf Oil spill which is causing more damage than all the sport climbing ever done.

I consider myself an activist if not to prevent, at least to slow environmental degradation and on the other hand to maintain the adventure in my sphere influence which is climbing and my opinions are based on the following premises.

There is enough sport climbing and the average climber cannot do all the routes in SA never mind the rest of the world in a life time.

Bolted climbing and engineered Mountain Routes (Via Verratas') by their very nature attracts far more people (including me) than would otherwise be the case. And again there are more than enough in the world.

On the other hand slowly but surely, by making life easier and easier, we are killing adventure for ourselves and our kids and only those gifted and talented athletes that get to the top may get a taste of adventure. Even then it is canned as adventure and dubbed xtreme sports and mostly controlled and done on the terms and conditions of the sponsors such as Red Bull who by any measure don't give a damn about adding 60 bolts to Cerro Torre and leaving tons of gear for their "planned" return next year.

Yeah sure I will take my kids up the chains on Half Dome and believe me that is a great adventure for a 5, 8, and 12 year old. But considering the shear number of people and their lack of experience people doing it, it is highly dangerous and not to be recommended!!!!. And it won't surprise me or bother me in the slightest if they take all the metal stuff down because then I have still have the desire, and the experience to take them on other adventures and with a bit of luck they will learn enough to go on real adventures themselves once they are older and learned the "ropes".

This thread started with an idea to develop a crag and by implication the development would involve bolting it. I drive by that crag every time I go to Krakadouw and the only reason I have not considered climbing it is because it is not worth it compared to continuing to Krakadouw where there are many new adventurous routes to be done. I am sure that crag only holds an allure to someone with a drill! And that's fine but don't be surprised that it then gets over run, and access is ultimately denied. It certainly does not lend itself to trad climbing with Krakadouw just round the corner.

this thread was started to identify new potential development areas and get some views & feedback & perhaps get the wheels rolling for development (if it is a good idea).

the 1st crag shown will not be overrun in anybody on this forum's lifetime since it is simply too remote. at best it will provide an alternative day out to people visiting rocklands - it will probably only see traffic if there's a healthy sprinkling of 4 and 5-star routes. and yes, it will never keep anybody from visiting krakadouw because the climbing is worlds apart.

can we please now try to stick to the original intention of the thread? i do not think there's anything new still to be said about bolting, crowds & LCD, environmental impact etc.

This forum discussion is very educational. I think a lot of members are opening their minds towards the root of man's impact on earth. A climber traveling to overseas distinations to climb without leaving a peg, bolt, or scratch on the rock leave a bigger carbon footprint through burning jetfuel than a sport climber taking a dump in a crag and leaving his rubbish.

_________________
Since I started climbing I developed a big crack addiction.

The Seweweekspoortpas is awesome to the max!! Also drove through there once. Almost rolled the car looking up at the mindblowingness!

_________________
Since I started climbing I developed a big crack addiction.

This thread is awesome in that we get to see some poetential climbing. I think we should start a section at the Wiki routes part of the page in which potential crags are listed, photo's shown and current status (like: negotiation still under way, open for bolting, open for trad, etc.). This way we can keep adding info to this section and everone can be kept in the loop about it all. PLUS, since it's not a forum it will most certainly not be run over (read: bulldozed) by the trad vs. sport debate.

Justin, how's about it? Can we start such a section?

Overheard at an LCD debate: "Telling people how bad they are and how good you are just makes you a pompous hypocrite. If you really want to reduce your environmental impact, go live in a cave, eat mud, or even better: just expire. Write PLEASE COMPOST on your chest in permanent marker"

Good answer snort, I agree with you. What we need are some custodian's of the mountians! Old wise climbers who say what can happen and not. They can be voted in to some position of power by the climbing community every few years thru the MCSA. They can then apply a general set of rules to any new/existing climbing areas. Maybe we should try to come up with some set of rules regarding new area's and existing ones. For example:

-I have always felt climbs 20m and under should be fair game to bolt? My reasoning being why lug a whole trad rack up only 20m? If you are prepping exactly which 7/8 pieces of gear to place on a 20m trad route you may as well bolt it?

-Exceptions will be made for classic lines eg ADK's line paarl (short trad test piece, forget the name)

-All 2 pitch or more climbs stay trad, unless they cannot be protected with trad gear

-Obviously climbs with no trad pro can be bolted

There will be arguments regarding the exact implementation of the above and thats where the custodians come in. For example, let a committee of say ADK, Ed Feb, Andy Davies, Alard Hufner and Paul Fatti make a final decision after considering all the factors and the rest of the climbing community acccept that decision as final?

Anyone with more thoughts on what would be fair guide lines?
PS the names above just came to me as they would sort of represent some kick ass personalities who know more about climbing then the rest of us all put together.

You want to keep new stuff tight till you've snaffled the lines & tatted the projects. Sharing is for the weak.

Heinrich...never tell grandma where you are going. Grandma will try to stop you with a fakken committee....

Rather do something wrong than nothing.

True that Marshall.

JGB: Regarding your <20m does not = trad..... I must say this observation is way off the mark. Come climb in the Magalies and see why you're wrong. Boulderkloof is stacked with <20m trad routes, opened by the likes of Kevin Smith, Stuart Middlemis (can't spell that surname, never could), ADK, Roger Natrass, etc. If one were to bolt lines like these it would kill hard tradding almost completely in one swipe. Some of the coolest lines I've done one trad are shorter than 20 meters. This includes Eliminator and Ivory Madonna, both hard test pieces in Cedarbergkloof. Look at the Cobra crack in Squamish, the world's hardest crack (f8c+) and its trad and shorter than 20m...

please reconsider.

it strikes me that there is actually general consensus on development ethics & what is to remain bolt free. there is some different views in the fine print, but that will always be the case. we will do well to heed the views of the "old school" - sorry SNORT, i know you're not really old - but i doubt that a formal approval process will work. if some cowboy goes and bolt where there should not be any bolts a chopping exercise should put any further nefarious plans on hold..... i really think we're generally on the mark here in Sefaffrica

btw, on keeping short lines bolt free - depends on the quality of the route and gear placements but more than that on the area - Magalies; Tafelberg etc. is clearly no-brainer bolt-free. at some crags there will be a grey area and the tone will probably be set by the 1st developers (like at hellfire)