Quantcast
It is currently Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:22 pm

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:52 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Lukas Malan
Hi all

Last weekend I took my first lead fall on trad, about 3m. I have to admit the fall boosted my confidence in my gear and placements quite a lot. Tomorrow I will go back and try the same route again (I peeled on the very last move).

The gear in question were two Camalots (#.5 and #.75) in a deep horizontal rail equalized with a 60cm sling set up as a sliding X. One cam would definitely have been enough, but since I could afford using two cams at the spot I did, increasing security and significantly lowering the force exerted on the cams.

Due to the nature of the placement the cams had to be loaded over an edge. Not ideal, but they can handle it and cams are the only option to protect the move.

I'd like to know which part of the cam is best to place over the edge. One of the cams that saved my bacon was placed with just the thumb loop extending over the edge, and the other with the thumb loop and another 5cm of cable extending over the edge.

I can post a pic of the setup after the weekend for clarification.

Cheers!
gollum

_________________
"I have no more friends, and my nuts are too small!"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 1167
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
i'm no pro on the issue (excuse the pun!) but my guess for horizontal placement: with a flexible stem unit; given that the cams are in a good secure position, the further the stem extends the better. if the camming unit is placed well it will not move at all, regardless of how deep the placement is (given that critical functional depth has been achieved). the more stem is extruding, the lower the force exerted on the it due to its flexibility. makes sense in my head.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:56 pm
Posts: 43
Location: SA
My 2c: there are other considerations to the position of the slings. Of critical importance is where the carabiners will be placed. You need to ensure at all times that the carabiners are not on an edge, cross-loaded or in a position where the gate can be opened or interfered with by movement / force


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:13 pm
Posts: 693
Hi Lukas

Personally, I don't think there is much in it, but I would rather go for stem over the edge rather than the loop or the join between them, simply because it is thicker and was designed to take such punishment. I would be more concerned about loading biners over edges, because that is a real big problem.

Something else, that bothers me is your equalizing jobby, I don't think it is a good idea - if I understand what you did correctly. If you choose to equalize two pieces of gear by using one sling, you should make VERY sure your biner won't come out if one piece fails. Let's say the one cam pulls or the biner breaks, with your setup, your rope side biner can pull off the sling, resulting in the whole thing failing. You are better of clipping into 2 separate slings or draws. If you have to use one sling only clip the rope side biner into the sling, not over (the biner should not fall out; the sling will be pulled into a triangle). You can achieve more or less the same by doing what you did, but forget about the X thing, then twist one end and clip into the loop and over the other end. If this sounds too complicated, sorry, but you are most likely better off with two slings or draws and it would be even better if you clip them one on either rope (assuming you climb with two ropes, I strongly recommend you do). Stuff to look out for when you don't equalize properly (like I described with the one sling pulling into a triangle and also, but in a lesser degree, with your X way and the twist way) is that your cams will pull towards each other and you don't really want that to happen.

Hope it makes sense.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
Posts: 593
Gollum,

Please post the pic.

All the comments sounds relevant.

In short and in general:
BD and other "Technical" Cams (the ones with a single cable and not a solid forged stem) are designed to bend in the way described.
Solid stem Cams (The old Wild Country Friends) are definitely NOT designed for this and will either fail of break if loaded as described. Mine has a prussic cord tied at the cam lobes to prevent this.
Robot Cams (the ones with a double cable) as DMM are fine if loaded over a horizontal ledge, but not if loaded in a vertical crack, with the stem bending in the wider axes.

Backing up pro has its own issues, as noted.
The way the sling is attached to the 2 pieces in question can be 'released' if threaded incorrectly, or cause additional shock loading to the remaining cam, should one fail.

As for the Biner over an edge.
Never, ever....ever.
When placing the gear, test where the biner may end in the even of a fall.
If it may possibly end on an edge, adjust the piece.

Post the pic. Perhaps we all will learn form it.

Congratulations on your first trad fall though.
Glad you can write about it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:20 am
Posts: 81
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Klimkop - Ricko
I also had my first fall the other day on a trad lead. Was a BD nr. 6 nut. Took alot of fighting to get it out again. It was pretty scary but a relief. So yea also have more trust in the gear and gained more respect for trad. Would love to see your pic of cam placement.

_________________
Since I started climbing I developed a big crack addiction.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:21 am
Posts: 268
Real Name: Henk Grobler
shorti wrote:
Hi Lukas

Something else, that bothers me is your equalizing jobby, I don't think it is a good idea - if I understand what you did correctly. If you choose to equalize two pieces of gear by using one sling, you should make VERY sure your biner won't come out if one piece fails. Let's say the one cam pulls or the biner breaks, with your setup, your rope side biner can pull off the sling, resulting in the whole thing failing. You are better of clipping into 2 separate slings or draws. If you have to use one sling only clip the rope side biner into the sling, not over (the biner should not fall out; the sling will be pulled into a triangle). You can achieve more or less the same by doing what you did, but forget about the X thing, then twist one end and clip into the loop and over the other end. If this sounds too complicated, sorry, ...
...(like I described with the one sling pulling into a triangle and also, but in a lesser degree, with your X way and the twist way) ...
Hope it makes sense.


You are loosing me shorti. The equalising X is they way I do it too. Can you maybe draw a sketch of your equalising method. The X really prevents the biner from pulling off should one pro fail. One may also tie knots in the single sling to create independance, but in such a way that you still have equalization.

All this of course while hanging on pumped forearms...

_________________
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:52 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Lukas Malan
Thanks for all the input!

First off, yes, I am firmly aware of the biner-over-edge issue. Not only am I aware of the danger, but after building scores of trad anchors I have come to develop a feel for the movement of anchors and how a biner can be loaded over an edge even though at first it seemed that it won't. I'm not saying I'm a master :afro: , just that I've seen this danger in action. In this case all three biners were hanging straight down a smooth, blank, vertical face.

OK, I'll definitely post a pic as soon as I'm back. For now, a sketch of my setup (nowhere near to scale:
Attachment:
File comment: Black circles are cam-side biners, red is rope-side biner
slidingX.JPG
slidingX.JPG [ 4.33 KiB | Viewed 1012 times ]


Now, most of you are very experienced and I would like to learn something from this. So if anything I say here seems arrogant or wise-ass, I just got my wording wrong. I really appreciate the criticism here.

I'll try to list the concerns mentioned about two pieces equalised with one sling, and my current reasoning about it.

1. Rope biner will pop off if one piece fails.
A: Not with the X setup. If one piece fails, the rope biner will slip from roughly the middle of the sling to the other end. Will be clear with pic.

2. Remaining piece will be shock-loaded if one piece fails.
A: Not so badly because the rope is dynamic. I've read many forum discussions on the sliding X, and many tests showed that it's by far the best equalizer for two pieces, in terms of load distribution. Also the test showed that with dynamic rope the shock load is a myth (will try and dig up my references for this).

3. Upon loading, the two pieces will be pulled to each other.
A: This will also happen if you place two pieces and clip them on seperate slings (saw this with my own eyes). I believe the only way to counter this, is to
(a) keep the angle between the pieces at the rope-side biner(s) as low as possible by making placements as close to each other as possible (in my case it was roughly < 25°)
(b) ensure the pieces will handle load in the rope-side biner's direction.
(c) ensure that if one piece fails, the change in direction in the other piece will be so low that it will not cause failure (if you see to (a) this should be OK).

shorti, if I understood correctly, you just described the American Death Triangle, which is a HUGE no-no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_death_triangle

*EDIT* My bad, you were warning AGAINST it :oops: Sorry!!

The one drawback I do have, is that if my slings fails, the whole placement is nullified. However you can say the same about a normal quickdraw/runner and in this case the sling was hanging down a smooth face - no prob as long as the sling is in tip-top shape.

That's about it from my side *assumes fetal position and waits to be ripped apart*

_________________
"I have no more friends, and my nuts are too small!"


Last edited by gollum on Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
Posts: 593
The X method works well, and has its place.

The problem here is usually when you need to back a piece up it is because neither are bomb proof and either is seen as likely to fail.

Should you then make the X and one piece fails, the entire length of the sling becomes part of the sistem and increases the shockload on the remaining piece.
In this way the biner taking the fall may end at an unexpected place that may cause it to load over an edge.

Depending on the situasion i would do the following:

2 remidies:

a) knot the sling x at both binders, but now the auto equalizer does not work, or

B) place both pieces.
add seperate slings to both.
put a biner ont both slings and clip both biners to 1 rope.

in this way you have 2 individual pieces of pro, very close to each other.

Should one fail, you will still be on the other, but have already estimated impact zones, biner positions after the fall and you are not shockloading as with the X.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 1167
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
if the pieces are far apart (horizontally) or the sling is not very long the equalising force my cause sideways pull on the gear - bad news if it's a cam! why take any chances? just clip the 2 pieces independantly.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:52 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Lukas Malan
shorti wrote:
assuming you climb with two ropes, I strongly recommend you do


I know I should, but I only have a single rope at my disposal atm. However, this route is really short (12m) and goes straight up, with just a little bend, so I think a single rope is fine for that. However I won't attempt serious meandering routes with a single rope (did the Angus-Leppan with one, but it has no zig-zags, just single-direction traverses. Now THERE's a route I won't experiment with weird stuff :P )

Hann wrote:
Congratulations on your first trad fall though.
Glad you can write about it.


Thanks! I just about soiled my pants as I came off! However, as with klimkop, the relief when I realised I had stopped was just undescribable. I was in a kind of adrenaline-rush state for the rest of the day!

*EDIT* Hann, I suspect you know this route - Sergeant Rock on Naval Hill?

_________________
"I have no more friends, and my nuts are too small!"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
Posts: 593
What Mok...ganitzki said.

That is what my long winded previous reply means.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 721
Hmmm. Personally, while I think equalising dodgy pieces (think placing 3 RPs and none of them are rated above 4kn) is a great idea, I haven't ever stopped to equalise a bomber .5 and .75. Nice idea, but it could just get complicated trying to fiddle with sliding X, especially if you're run out and keen to get kit quick.

If I had placed the two pieces close together, I'd clip one on each rope, or if you're climbing with a single just clip them both to the rope with a draw each.


***EDIT for lateness....what they said^^


Last edited by pierre.joubert on Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
Posts: 593
eish.

i have not placed a cam in the Free State in 8 years.
genade, but time flies.

but i believe i do recall.
is it the one in the middle, 19ish, or the overhanging one to the right. 21ish.. I think.

remember, you can always clip individually onto one rope, even if the 2 pieces ar very close together.

my cellphone is giving me headaces and i should study.

adios till monday.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:52 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Lukas Malan
@mokganjetsi, @Hann and @pierre: Yip, ultimately the sliding X is unnecessary for this purpose. If the cams are close enough and clipped on two seperate runners, they'll probably equalise themselves just as well in case of a fall. And there's no danger of getting the X wrong (actually just after I made the setup last week I realised I had made a back clip :shock: , so I had to fix that - good thing I did!), and it's way faster. Right, I'll try that tomorrow. I'll still recreate my setup from last week and post a snap.

Hann wrote:
but i believe i do recall.
is it the one in the middle, 19ish, or the overhanging one to the right. 21ish.. I think.

Ja, the 19ish in the middle.

_________________
"I have no more friends, and my nuts are too small!"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:13 pm
Posts: 693
That setup in your picture was what I was going for - I didn't know it was called the sliding X, it doesn't look an x to me :mrgreen:

Good luck with your route. Falling on gear that holds teaches you a lot, falling on gear that doesn't hold, teaches you more :twisted:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:52 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Lukas Malan
Cool bananas! Phew, I'm not alone - I was beginning to think I'm dylesixc, seeing more of a V or W than X!

In any case, here are some pics as promised.

Attachment:
File comment: The setup that held my fall
slidingX_setup.jpg
slidingX_setup.jpg [ 132.91 KiB | Viewed 914 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: The setup with a little tension
slidingX_tension.jpg
slidingX_tension.jpg [ 60.73 KiB | Viewed 914 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: The two placements
slidingX_placements.jpg
slidingX_placements.jpg [ 78.79 KiB | Viewed 914 times ]


In any case, my lesson from this discussion is that this setup is way too fiddly and can quite easily be done incorrectly, a very dangerous factor. Clipping the two pieces on seperate runners is the way to go. Yesterday I repeated the route, and simply clipped one cam as short as possible, and the other on a 30cm runner as backup.

Sadly I sent the route and did not test my new system (perhaps a result of the new easy setup costing less energy? :lol: ).

Thanks for all the input, and happy climbing!

_________________
"I have no more friends, and my nuts are too small!"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 721
Oh no! Those camelots have definetly been damaged over that edge! I'll send you the number of a cam recycling facility. They pay the shipping in exchange for any busted trad gear that they then recycle (for the aluminium, you know?)

Wow, I never knew there was trad in Bloem. Do you have some pics of this here crag? Rock looks great


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:52 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Lukas Malan
Damn! Some of my other camalots have also been loaded over edges. Not sure which ones so I guess I'll have to send in the whole bunch. Good thing you told me!

I'd rather call it "naturally protected bouldering", since the routes are no longer than 12m. However I enjoy the climbing and after all it's the only crag in Bloem. Yep, the dolerite there is great and offers solid protection. I'll grab a few pics and send them to you.

_________________
"I have no more friends, and my nuts are too small!"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
Posts: 593
pierre.joubert wrote:
Those camelots have definetly been damaged over that edge!


Care to elaborate Pierre?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 721
Just having a laugh, they look brand new.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
Posts: 593
Apparently humor hits me slow on Monday mornings.

I promise to laugh once the coffee kicks in. :afro:

So much for sending my old DMM cams to you "recycler" and to buy those new shiny Dragons.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:56 pm
Posts: 43
Location: SA
A good discussion. Lets have more of these :thumleft:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:20 am
Posts: 81
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Klimkop - Ricko
agree. very educational. Dont b shy with these kind of posts. keep em coming. im very new to trad.

_________________
Since I started climbing I developed a big crack addiction.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 721
Since we're on the topic of equalising stuff, how about the next lesson being "Different ways of equalising a 3 (or more) point anchor?" See the new thread...

And thanks Lukas, pics really make it all pretty.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:20 am
Posts: 81
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Klimkop - Ricko
kwaai! Just practised a 3 point anchor system yesterday at home. Will take photos and post it. i've not put it to real test yet.

_________________
Since I started climbing I developed a big crack addiction.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:21 am
Posts: 268
Real Name: Henk Grobler
Those placements look bomber to me. No need to back-up. Or if you insist, climb with two ropes and clip placements on separate ropes. That looks more like a setup for a belay stance. imho.

_________________
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Grant Marinus
Hi, my only comment is that its not usual to be able to build this sort of anchor placement mid climb - i would more likely expect to see it at a belay spot or a decent stance. On a moderate to higher grade trad climb i would not hang about making a sliding anchor such as this one when there are clearly great placements to make with either a single piece or two individual pieces. How long did it take for you to build this set up? Did you have a decent stance at the time? If you were near the top then why not just place the two pieces and clip the rope to both individually with the right extender if needed?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:49 pm
Posts: 554
Location: Waterval Boven
Coaching trad from the couch here ... nice!

1. Both those look so awesome, learn to trust just one piece if it is as good as it looks there - that's what it was made for?
2. If you are heading up onto some gnarly looking ground and need the extra mental assurance, why not clip two draws in there, bottom gates opposing, this way giving you even the extra strength of 2 gates and redundancy (i.e. no chance of you gate unclipping as you step through on that rail etc.)
3. You said you were close to the top? I would not even bother extending those placements, just flip the one cam over to get your gates opposing and then you can approach the crux with confidence?

PS: If you had a comfy enough stance to make a whole sliding x thing, make two overhand knots in the sling halfway back towards each cam, this will still give you the self-equalising effect, but if the sling on one side happened to miraculously cut, the other side will take a [smaller] shock load and not pull through like a classic sliding x arrangement.

Try it...

_________________
Gustav
Roc 'n Rope Adventures
Waterval Boven
013 257 0363
climb @t rocrope dot com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:52 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Lukas Malan
It's not exactly a comfortable stance from which you make this placement, but it's nowhere near desperate. Weight mostly on one foot standing on your toes on a foothold, and one hand jammed into the rail. Tonight I should get some pics of my climb from Saturday when I sent the route, so I'll post these in a new thread so pierre can have a look at the crag and you can see the stance from where I built this anchor.

henkg wrote:
That looks more like a setup for a belay stance.

Hehe, got that right!

I know these two are bomber - the main reason I placed two is to place less wear on my gear in case of a fall. Stupid, I know, but the fall factor was somewhere around 0.3.

In any case, I did mention that when I sent this route I didn't use this setup, but simply clipped both seperately (one short, the other on a 30cm runner for backup). Where the "X" took me about five minutes to assemble, this took only about a minute, and didn't leave me with a tired right leg!

_________________
"I have no more friends, and my nuts are too small!"


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group