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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:50 pm 
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Good idea but how do we intend on policing that?
Yosemite sees alot of traffic and it is easier to catch culprits that use a drill.
At Yellowwood, how many guys climb there during the week?

Will you be able to tell if a bolt was drilled by hand after the fact?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:32 pm 
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Location: Charlotte, North Carolina, USA
Real Name: Donovan Craig
If ethics is a big part of this, then surely stewardship plays a role too?

By this I mean, the growth of our sport comes from convenience and accessibility. If we had never invented the bolt hanger, would climbing be some underground sport that is only accessible to those who have the right gear (and balls)? And by right, I mean expensive!

To me a bolted route is so much more appreciated, I say that because I know that some poor sole took hours/days if not weeks to give me the gift of climbing a line that they themselves put there heart into. Not to say that a Trad climb is any less than that, it just seems that Trad is more along the lines of, "I did it like this, can you do it?"

Im not trying to stray from the topic here, but my questions therefore are"
"who deemed that this crag is now only a Trad crag?" (one of the first accentionist? the park authorities?)
"If there is one bolted line, why cant I bolt another?" This seems regressive to the sport in general. I know for certain that if you bolt something, there is generally more traffic to that area. Therefore growing the sport of climbing... and I know there are many that would not like to grow the sport of climbing because of selfish reasons, but just for a moment think past that.
and lastly
"dont bolted stances(anchor stations) allow for a quick decent incase of danger?"

Again, not trying to be an arse, just wondering why "we" do what we do and what forces us to make the decisions we make?

Cheers


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:55 pm 
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Hand drilling sounds like a good compromise - unless you take a look at the 3 pitch hand bolted sport route (Wonderland) at Paarl Rocks :pirat:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:15 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
"who deemed that this crag is now only a Trad crag?" Good question. The people to whom the issue of bolts-at-Yellowood matters enough to enforce their ethics, who are prepared to Box & Chop.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:26 pm 
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Real Name: Donovan Craig
Marshall1 wrote:
The people to whom the issue of bolts-at-Yellowood matters enough to enforce their ethics, who are prepared to Box & Chop.


Does that mean MCSA or just a random group of concerned citizens who "protect" the crag?

We have this debate every year and its always the same... the old guy who was the FA gets to say what and how the route should be climbed. Well the only reason the old guy keeps reverting back to "its a gear route" is because they never had bolts when he was climbing (yes hes that old!). Now the sport has progress so far beyond the old bugger that he doesnt even know what he's talking about anymore. I just wonder when all these old guys are gone, will the next generation have respect for his dying wishes not to bolt his route, or admiration for the fact that he did it first and therefore bolt it so that everyone can appreciate it?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:27 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
fivesix read the debate. The old guy who is trying to stop bolting routes and bolted stances at YW is the dude who bolted the rap route as well as the dude who has put more bolts than anyone else at Blouberg and who is being dissed for being a hypocrite. This old guy who grew up with no bolts also owns a climbing gym and sponsors a lot of climbers too. He has not moved on and is still capable of climbing 7a with or without bolts. And he is quite old. And he owns a hilti drill.

This old guy is bent on preserving just two places for those few climbers that still want the commitment and adventure of ''out there'' scary and adventurous climbing that nobody gives a damn about really and that nobody doing it is ever going to be called and ''athlete".

YW is just one of those places - in fact probably one of the very few places in the world - where there are a clutch of really good ''out there'' trad multi-pitch exciting test pieces that are scary but actually quite safe. (Nobody has ever been injured on those routes). And that is why it seems to be so attractive to every sponsored ''athlete" who comes here to do a route so they can get their next pay cheque for their next ''adventure''. Just drive thru Du Toit's kloof and you will see several square kilometres of unclimbed rock that lends itself to trad or bolting. But no, it has to be YW because that's where the old exciting routes are and the ''athletes'' and their sponsors don't really care if the new ones have bolts.

YW (and Blouberg) are the two not-for-sissies climbing venues in SA. I intend to do what I can keep it that way, at least a little longer.

I am signing out of this forum and will do what I feel must be done. Climb the routes and chop the sissy bolts where I find them at Blouberg and YW.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:39 pm 
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I must be missing something.....is this Donovan Craig someone who has surpassed AdK, Clinton, Jeremy, Willem, Douw and all those other 50 or so superb local climbers who signed the Yellowwood Ethics statement? Is he a king of hard Cape trad climbing that I just haven't been aware of, and he should lead all of us in our thinking on this subject that is so important to us local climbers.
Maybe if he is the sort of guy who needs institutional directives someone could point out to him that the laws of the Republic prohibit a single bolt at Yellowwood. Maybe he would realise that the MCSA supports the laws of the country.
Jeez man...for crying in a bucket...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:48 pm 
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Real Name: Donovan Craig
OK GEEZZZ you can have your crag and keep it to yourself!

I get the picture, I was just trying to ask some general questions, GOD forgive a man! Here I'll quote myself:
Quote:
Again, not trying to be an arse, just wondering why "we" do what we do and what forces us to make the decisions we make?


Put a stick up my arse and burn me alive for asking some simple questions... damn! :puker:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:58 pm 
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Real Name: CityROCK
hey SNORT. that's my rap route too. you can't just unilaterally decide to chop OUR abseil route.

climbing smaal blaar ridge with that drill on my back was frikken hard work. never mind the actual bolting.

and we have had far too much fun on the abseil route itself. got not just one but TWO sets of ropes stuck. thanks hilton and bruce for rescuing them the next day btw. and that huge black scorpion living on the ledge on the 3rd rap point that you never saw. that was about as fun an abseil as i have ever had. 3 am back at the car and we climbing with your wife MM and it was your wedding anniversary. i still shake my head thinking about that 24-hour epic day and night. un-beep-believable.

i have never met a more committed trad climber than you. but no i will not agree to chop the abseil route. it's mine too.


Last edited by robertbreyer on Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:59 pm 
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Location: cape town
Quote:
Put a stick up my arse and burn me alive for asking some simple questions... damn!


Where can I find you?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:11 pm 
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Location: Charlotte, North Carolina, USA
Real Name: Donovan Craig
Dark Horse wrote:
Where can I find you?


Charlotte, North Carolina... and you better have some biltong in your hand when you greet me :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:22 am 
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Um, no, last seen Dark had a pile of sticks and a box of matches in his hand. Must be planning a braai.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:13 am 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Don't worry Robert, I will replace the bolts with the nuts me and Ged Desforges used and that was far more exciting and scary and fun than the present rap route.

The first rappel was off a single Rock 1 - it is still there at the top, The second rap was off a Rock 6, The third was off a Chouinard nut size 5. This was to the halfway ledge and then we used the rap points off Newborn to do the rest.

Yes indeed rapping off Yellowwood is great fun and very scary and airy.

I have to admit it is a not-for-sissies abseil.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:55 am 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
To be honest I could not be bothered to read through all this rhetoric - again!! But one thing jumps out at me; the visitors appear to have had contact with local climbers, why oh why were they not steered directly to Snort or Hilton for the low down on the crag before they went up there. Why do the ppl who they were in contact with assume that their knowledge of the place is sufficient to steer them right when in truth they have barely climbed up there????

This is especially unforgivable after the last debacle during which discussion I raised this exact same point. If you have not been actively opening routes there over a number of years then you are not qualified to pronounce on the prevailing ethic!! Plain and simple - NO arguments. In Snort and Hilton we have two climbers who have a great love for the place, an intimate knowledge of the climbing history and hence appropriate behaviour at the crag. PLEEEZZZ for heavens sake just steer visitors to the correct ppl.

Update the wiki with the appropiate ethics details (ie NO BOLTS) -those that know how, get the info from Snort and post it up (Ive done my bit in this regard), place a sign on the approach as a fail safe.

@Justin - Most traddies would be far less inclined to do a route that features unnecessary bolts as the purity of the line has been spoiled and the adventure (what tradding is all about) tossed out of the window. A crag like YW should inspire fear and awe - it certainly scares me! Justin if u want to slap in bolts at every stance then go open a route in Montagu where its accepted practice!! It sounds like ur hijacking the thread to push ur own agenda, Snort started this thread as a call to arms for tradders, yet once again its devolved into a quagmire of (mostly) unimformed opinions.

Pretty sad really. So glad I dont climb anymore!!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:47 pm 
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Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Real Name: Mark Straughan
I too will shed a tear if the rap route goes... there can't be many like it in the world.

It's one of those rare things that make for delectable, replayable, lifelong memories, or at least until the alzies kicks in...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:15 pm 
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Real Name: Willem Boshoff
can't believe you guys are considering chopping the rap-route because some snot nosed kid is trying to imply that you're a hypocrite. the little cretins have not done anything worthwhile in climbing and stalks the forum hoping to get something to throw in your face. tell them to go place a cam where the sun don't shine :mrgreen:

on a more serious note: the yellowwood issue seems to be a hard one to crack. i think there was a time when newborn and the rap route did not present any danger to yellowwood's virginity-at-large due to the low amount of traffic & publicity. but now that it get's some lime light we are all very conscious of the potential to get lines of shiny new bolts up there and hence the rahrah. is it that hard to agree that newborn is an exception and the rap route a necessity - other than that NO bolts except as agreed to by the "custodians".


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:38 pm 
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Greg Hart wrote:
If you have not been actively opening routes there over a number of years then you are not qualified to pronounce on the prevailing ethic!! In Snort and Hilton we have two climbers who have a great love for the place, an intimate knowledge of the climbing history and hence appropriate behaviour at the crag.


Ok, fair point. I'll take it.

Mr Sir Mokkies, I take exception to the fact that you take exception to the fact that I implied bolting the rap route makes SNORT a hypocrite. I mean, it does, but it doesn't change his message. Scrutinizing the messenger instead of the message is my mistake.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:57 pm 
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Real Name: Willem Boshoff
dear sir your pierreness,
i take exception to the fact that you took exception to the fact that i took exception to the fact that you implied that SNORT is a grumpy nasty old hippie, whereas i clearly implied that there might be snot nosed kids out there on which we could bestow such a calamatous experience as having a #3 friend shoved in thy crack.

be it as it may, humble apologies all round for any offending statements. long live the king, the rap route, newborn and otherwise bolt-free rock.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:41 pm 
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Location: Cape Town (mostly :) )
Snorts starting post, while nationalistic, had more to do with the fact that 3 new routes (is it not, in fact, 4?) have been opened by non-locals in the last 13 months.
And as much as (many of) you non-participants stand by passing judgment, the facts still remain that the area is receiving international attention because:
- it is accessible
- it was splashed across the international media with no less two (that I kno of) different features on NEWBORN
- it was portrayed as an area where it was accepted practice to place bolts strategically - and in NEWBORNS case, exclusively.
- subsequent international articles further highlighted the area
- it is seriously GOOD climbing

@XMod you are somewhat mistaken. Max et al (referred to on this forum as ze Germans) did, in fact, seek local info - from at least 3 different sources, two of which were first ascentionists at YW, and all having climbed multiple routes there.
<as an aside, I'm sure your view-point changes sides?>
<<as a second aside, ze German's one route strayed on to an existing route - WHICH WAS NOT WRITTEN UP.>>

It is interesting that the people being flamed here are all German - if I didn't know any better I'd say there's a hint of xenophobia - SAFFA's who bend YW 'ethics' get off scott-free.

YW is an area besot with grey-ethic, and SNORT does make a valid observation that there are more eager and able foreigners than local's prepared or able to contribute to YW climbing. Rather than dissect what SNORT vs Foreigners do/don't do, go climb there and experience the area 1st hand...not so that you might actually make a more informed commentary, but because that is the point of SNORTS post; get up and go climb.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:15 pm 
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Hi Tristan, long time! Hope ur well. My viewpoint has not changed, my original and present standpoint was that the possibility of further sport routes in the YW should not be ruled out completely. Also: I have always and will always support the view that trad routes should not have any bolts on them at all, only in exceptional cases (eg: fivestar route with a death fall crux) should bolts be considered, even then why not accept nature on her own terms realise that some lines wont go? Drilling bolts on trad lines is like chipping holds, it artificially forces the route to go. (And placing unnecessary ones is just plain dumb!)

The apparent turnaround of my opinion (after much discussion here and privately with Snort and Hilton) lies in the fact the rock is emminently traddable and that now is not the time for further sport routes. All tradding possibilities should be thoroughly explored first, only then should sport climbing be looked into. Basically I defer to their vastly superior experience and respect their wishes. Anyway Im sure you have similar feelings to this about trad climbing so I certainly dont mean to preach! :)

But guys really, our sport should revolve around mutual respect and I must ask you all to respect the guidance of Snort and Hilton when it comes to YW. For younger climbers with limited experience to think they have the right to dictate what should happen up there is crazy. The collective climbing experience of all the ppl opposing the trad standpoint here does not add up to the experience of just one of the older guys! Its akin to a newbie boogieboarder trying to tell a member of 'Da Hui' what's what at Pipeline! If it werent so ridiculous it would be funny!

Anyways - peace. Hope u guys manage to get up there soon and finish those projects!!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:16 pm 
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Not only Xenophonbia but perhaps a mild amount of ignorance too. I think that the Austrianswould take offense to being labeled Germans! ROFLMAO!! :lol:

_________________
I hate this real world place... I'd be more than happy to live out there rather...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:34 pm 
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@Xmod, yeah long time - but maybe cos you don't climb anymore and I paddle in circles and hence don't surf?
:shock:

I have said this before, but I'll say it again. The minute you add bolts to an area, you immediately change the character of the crag, and (in my opinion) you can no longer have a black / white set of 'rules'. This happened a long, long time ago at YW, the difference being that the bolt placers were LOCAL icons.

I also disagree, slightly, that bolting is the root of all evil. For example, Dream Street Rose, One Flew Over The Cookoo's Nest have all been climbed free without the hardware which was added - added by esteemed hard men at the time. BUT, it allowed for the next generation to surpass that, and move up. I believe that there is a place for this, and there is - equally - a place for bolt-free area's. I just feel that a handful of people - with due respect to them and their intentions - cannot dictate how the future generations behave, while there is still evidence of prior transgressions. Do as I say, not as I do...

If YW is to be bolt-free in future, then they ALL have to go - including the commitment reducing (tho i think its dangerous) rap route.

And it is for this reason that I am not, in fact, a signatory of said Mandate.

Having said that, I fully agree with SNORT that its the thin end of the wedge - but that is a compromise tht needs to be considered if the area continues to boast any bolts.

@Hilton, why is it against the Republic laws to drill?

Ps: @Xmod, I do not have any project at YW. The free climbing - with or without hangers - excludes me. But also because contrary to SNORTS statement, there are other area's that require commitment and a bit of nerve. I prefer to leave to hot-potato that is YW, to others for the moment


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Phew, as a newcomer to this thread/ topic I'm quite drained and exhausted having just read through 3 pages of postings! I agree with those who say that bolts should only be placed on Yellowwood Amphitheatre where ABSOLUTELY necessary .. possibly limited to hand drilled (although then the quality is not guaranteed - e.g. the drop-ins 'placed' by Chris Lomax, I think, on the 1st pitch off the Jumbo ledge on Armageddon Time Direct).
My question: Snort and Robert, may I ask why you bolted a rap route on Yellowwood? For decades we had been descending down the gully between Smalblaar Ridge and the Castle Chesspiece. That seemed to work fine ... I don't think a rap route was/ is needed. This then feels like unnecessary bolts (especially if ropes get jammed on pull-down!)?!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:37 am 
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Ross, for decades we walked all the way round from the top of the routes on TM and now there are no less than 3 fully bolted abseil lines and at least another 10 lower offs.

For decades we walked off Blouberg and there are 2 fully bolted rap lines.

There are bolted raps at Krakadouw and lower offs at Wolfberg Cracks (at least 2) and the gully at YW has two rap points, and Castle Rocks and Hellfire etc etc etc.

There are rap routes all over the Drakensberg and virtually every major crag in SA. And the Black Canyon of the Gunnison and The Needles (very very traddy places in the US)

The rap route off YW is consistent with rap routes on comparable walls and crags here and all around the world. And the ropes-getting-stuck-problem is fixed. (Needed chain extensions)

What is more, rapping off Yellowwood is elegant in my view, with outrageous exposure and a lot of good fun to the extent that it warranted being named as a route. Try it sometime.

To juxtapose it to bolted stances and bolts placed at or near trad gear in the YW context is disingenuous and pure obfuscation. If that were the case then the logic about all rap routes at crags mentioned above are also unneccesary esp. TM and should be removed. Were you not involved in putting up rap routes on TM? Are they necessary in your view? And they have just been replaced with new ones....


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:23 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
Towerkop is still pure. No bolts placed. I think I'm prepared to box & chop for Towerkop. This remains to be tested.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:37 pm 
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Marshall1 I have been to Towerkop in April but as I had my lighties with me did not get to climb the main crag. There may not be bolted rap routes but I came across one thread. There is also a piece of tatty rope in the one gully which is very useful for some people to climb up and down a short steep section. I could easily do the climbing without the rope. But I dare say at night or if it were wet I would appreciate it being there. And let us not to mention the Cave that was blasted out by Dynamite which climbers and hikers find most useful.

These modifications are accepted.

These rap points and threads are found all over crags all over the world. Even the Shawangunks.

I much prefer non-bolted rap points but they do tend to deteriorate quite quickly and many of them are unsightly with several loops of tat that accumulates over time. The rap route at YW was first done by me on trad gear but I with Robert replaced it with bolts as it was so exciting to do. Nobody I know would ever go down on the trad pieces I placed.

I have left two such threads (no metal in the rock - just the biner) on TM personally and I maintain them. I have also maintained 3 other thread points on TM over the last year (that I did not originally make) by removing all the old tat and replacing it with decent stuff and a biner or maillon.

It is back to the point I make over and over again. Lower offs are standard practise all over the world. Bolted ones are more durable and less unsightly than trad one's. And one can debate further the merits and demerits of each. Nevertheless, the fact that they exist has nothing to do with placing bolts at or near trad gear on routes or bolting stances. Bolted stances definitely change the character of doing a route. Making a stance is easy and instant and can shave hours off doing a route at Yellowwood. And escape is also easy and instant.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:31 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
I once proposed bolting rap stations on TK, Mike Scott was quick to remind me that climbers have found their way off TK for 125 years with out a stainless rap station. Threaded rap points are 100% acsepted.

I have turned a corner regarding bolts at Towerkop, none more zealous than a converted whore, I think I'm prepared to box & chop...chop for sure, maybe box....this remains to be seen(more of a teargas & shambok type).


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:53 pm 
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didnt Mike Scott bolt the abseil anchors on Lions Head? where people have walked off for about 125,000 years?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:21 pm 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
What does box mean - fight?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Mike Scott placed a bolt on a route called Boltergeist that has been chopped. I have done the route more than once but dunno where the bolt was, could have been or should have been. We all make mistakes.


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