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 Post subject: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:05 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Pretoria
Real Name: Theunis de Bruin
Hi I am looking to buy 2 x 1/2 ropes and will appreciate any input.

Thus far it is between Beal Joker 9.1 and Edelrid Shikra 8.5

Which do you prefer or is there something better out there?


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:57 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 10:37 am
Posts: 99
Real Name: Josh Pickering
I just sold a pair of Edelrid Merlin 8mm ropes. They seem really nice! They take a higher number of falls and have a higher KN rating than the Beal 9mm. It does seem a bit scary climbing on ropes that look about the thickness of cordelette though!


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:59 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:15 pm
Posts: 27
I have been using two Beal jokers for trad for 5 years already.

Prefer them when rapping off routes and I feel better if I have two people that second on each rope.

Only ever used them twice as a double rope.


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:55 pm
Posts: 162
Hi Theunis

The Beal cobra 8,6mm are brilliant. Have had them for about 3 years and am super happy with them. :thumright


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:04 am 
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Posts: 591
I tested climbing with 2 jokers on trad a year or so ago.
I sold them both soon after....

You have 1 advantage: You can do longer abseils.
Never have I used the extra 10m on lead as I find you either run out of gear or into rope-drag.
Feeling better when having 2 people on second is an illusion only, as 1 x 1/2rope is safe when on toprope.

Disadvantages I found to be numerous:
1) The extra 20m of rope + the extra thickness of the ropes makes for a very bulky pack.
2) Management of the extra 20m when in hanging stances can be difficult.
3) The ropes are heavier, and combined with the extra bulk, you need a great big backpack if you carry all the gear (think: taking your girlfriend tradding)
4) When using only one rope to abseil I find the joker extremely slippy and hard to control. Especially when you are abseiling with a backpack.
5) Long abseils temps you to use the full 60m, which in turn temps you to get into all sorts of trouble (I believe there was a tread on this not too long ago.... Justin?)

- IMHO the jokers are designed as a high end sport red-pointing rope, and should be used as such.

When tradding, get real trad gear.
The ropes I currently using are the Edelrid Shikra. And I can REALLY vouch for their handling.
http://www.edelrid.de/index.php?option= ... 34&lang=en

Keep in mind:
Wild Country Ropeman II only works on ropes of 8.5mm and thicker.
Wild Country Ropeman I only works on even thicker ropes, and I have no idea of tibloc or the rest.


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:08 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 712
Been using a pair of Blue Water excellence for about 2 years and are super happy with them
Not sure how they compare in price right now to the Edelrid half ropes. Prices anyone?
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:20 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 1141
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
jip, if you are serious about trad then get proper half ropes (8.5mm) - all the advantages hann mentioned

but

the jokers do double up as (high-end) sport ropes. useful at mixed crags like hellfire and boven - then you have the option of climbing both sport and trad at the same time.

the 8.5mm ropes also need a belay device that bites a bit more (like atc-guide or reverso-3); will work with a normal atc but abbing & belay is less secure; especially when the ropes are new and more slippery.


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:13 pm
Posts: 689
I don't think you'll notice much of a difference, they all work. I've climbed with Beal jokers, stingers, cobras, edelweiss sharp, eldrid merlin, some other edilrid 8.5 i think, bluewater excellence (those I recall, there's probably more) and they all worked. The stingers ain't even half ropes. Thinner ropes are lighter, so is shorter ropes. Thicker ropes last longer and they are obviously more bulky (you can pack 2X50m merlins in the same space than 1X60m joker). I won't recommend the merlins for you however, since they are quite specialised. Maybe one day when you have to replace your first ropes, you can go for the merlins (by that time you'll know if you really need them). If you go for thin ropes, get a good belay device. I prefer reverso 3 - even if it's just for the auto-lock capability. Actually get a good belay device in any case. To get to the point, try find something that handles water and dirt well and something that runs smoothly. But to be honest, I don't know which rope is the absolute best, so maybe just buy what you like and can afford :mrgreen: It'll be a good idea to go climb with a few people and see what they have. You'll get a better idea when you handle the ropes.


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:37 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:26 am
Posts: 135
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Lee de Smidt
The Bluewater Excellence STD goes for R1,941


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 712
That's 60m right? Anyone have prices for the Edelrid Shikra 60m or 50m?


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
Posts: 591
https://www.mountainmailorder.co.za/ind ... uctId=2013
R1599.00

Odd....
I'm almost sure mine are 50's......


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:24 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 712
Thanks Hann. Hey didn't catch up with you in Thailand, how was you trip? A group of us did ask every Hann-looking dude in Ton Sai if he was you, and while we did find a guy from the right country with the right first name, 'twas not you. Or was it? Were you accosted by bucket wielding saffas at the Sawadee bar sometime between 8pm and 4am on any date between the 16th Dec and 7th Jan?


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Ja, that Thailand thing.....
It got complicated, plane tickets and accommodation got canceled and I ended Cedarberg way.

Women, I tell you. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 712
That sucks man, you need to take the power back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqkMsXcHQYg

That poor dude... somewhere in SA is a man very very afraid to tell anyone his first name :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:05 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Pretoria
Real Name: Theunis de Bruin
Thanks for all the input.

I'll stick to the Edelrid Shikra 8.5 then. If I manage to find a 50m set then it will be awesome otherwise 60m will do.


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:21 am
Posts: 246
Real Name: Henk Grobler
Hann has summarized the Jokers well. Too long, too bulky and not 100% suited for trad, I ended up cutting the rope to 50. If I have to start from scratch, I will go for 50m Half ropes.

Its like an SUV, yes it can go off-road but it won't let you drive where your mates drive.

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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:22 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:23 pm
Posts: 110
Location: Gauteng
After descending form Mponjwane on a non-standard rope length (before the current bolts were placed) I am very weary of non-standard rope lengths (after a little epic). If you end up short of the next anchors and there is no-where to place gear (which you might have to leave in any case) you are in for some fun. Numerous long sport, trad and alpine routes abroad are equipped for the more or less defacto 60m rope length. Abseiling on a single 50m which is doubled, on routes with 30m anchor spacing will make you want that extra 10m real bad regardless of saving in weight and bulk.


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:44 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 1141
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
anchors / rap stations will be at most 50m apart at most trad venues.

i figured however the extra 10m @ 42g/m = 420g for the additional flexibility to link pitches (did a 55m pitch at magalies - easy stuff though) and saves ur bacon in the unlikely event of having to ab more than 50m. had a couple of instances where the 60m rope helped us to cover 2 abs in one go; saves a bit of time.


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:45 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:05 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Pretoria
Real Name: Theunis de Bruin
I managed to get a set of 60m from MMO.

If the length bothers me I'll just cut it shorter, but I doubt it.

Thanks again for steering me away from the jokers.


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:59 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:26 am
Posts: 135
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Lee de Smidt
BW Excellence is also 60m. Makes sense to me to have that extra 10m, but then I'm not climbing harder stuff where every gram counts.

A little off topic:

So I cannot afford to buy 2 half ropes at the moment and only have one 8.4mm that I use together with my 9.7mm sport rope.

Other than the obvious extra weight of the 9.7mm what would be the other disadvantages of climbing with ropes of different diameter? Is this a safe practice?


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:11 pm 
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I too climbed with a sport rope and trad rope combined in the past.
Did so for a few years.

Issues I found was that the ropes tend to coil when rapping due to the difference in diameter.

There may be a impact load implication with the sport rope putting more force on the pro in case of a fall though.

Other issue, but logistical only, is having to take the sport rope out of the rope bag and coil it each time you go tradding, and uncoiling it and putting it back in the rope bag each time you go sport climbing.

Me, I like to have on bag with sport gear, and another with trad gear. So you just grab the one you need on the day.....


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 1141
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
Leebo wrote:
what would be the other disadvantages of climbing with ropes of different diameter? Is this a safe practice?


1.3mm is a sizable difference; especially on skinny ropes (15% on 8.4mm) - could cause some knot-slippage when you tie ropes together to abb. older ropes with soft sheaths should tie well enough; but a good idea to test the knotting in a safe environment. other than that i can't think of any material disadvantage.

and the extra 10m is only a problem with walk-ins when you carry the entire rope; when you climb the only rope you carry is the distance you climbed..


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
Posts: 591
Ja, Good point Mok,

Use a reef knot + 2 x stop knots to join.


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:26 am
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Lee de Smidt
Thanks guys!


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:40 am
Posts: 726
Location: Stellenbosch
Real Name: Nic Le Maitre
Hi

There are a couple of problems I have found when using different diameter ropes together, the coiling thing Hann mentioned, they tend to run at different speeds through the belay device (or more or less easily) which affects taking in rope making it difficult to control both ropes simultaneously and equally.

When joining ropes of different diameters the best knot to use is the sheetbend but make sure you use stopper knots!

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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:21 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 527
Real Name: Warren Gans
Hann wrote:
I tested climbing with 2 jokers on trad a year or so ago.
I sold them both soon after....

Disadvantages I found to be numerous:
1) The extra 20m of rope + the extra thickness of the ropes makes for a very bulky pack.
2) Management of the extra 20m when in hanging stances can be difficult.
3) The ropes are heavier, and combined with the extra bulk, you need a great big backpack if you carry all the gear (think: taking your girlfriend tradding)
5) Long abseils temps you to use the full 60m, which in turn temps you to get into all sorts of trouble (I believe there was a tread on this not too long ago.... Justin?)

- IMHO the jokers are designed as a high end sport red-pointing rope, and should be used as such.


sounds like most of your issues are related to rope length, not what brand. did you buy 2 70m Jokers? see signature

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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:05 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Pretoria
Real Name: Theunis de Bruin
no - I got the edelrid shikras in 60m


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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 527
Real Name: Warren Gans
I beg your pardon but that question was directed at Hann, not Oakley

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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
Posts: 2875
Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
I picked up a pair of 8.5mm Tendon Masters. They can be used as a half rope and twin rope.

They are still new, but so far they've been great.

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 Post subject: Re: Rope for trad??
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:40 am
Posts: 726
Location: Stellenbosch
Real Name: Nic Le Maitre
Warren G wrote:
I beg your pardon but that question was directed at Hann, not Oakley


Normal trad ropes are 50m, equals 100m of rope total. 2 60m Jokers makes 120m of rope total. I also had to read it twice, but I have more experience of figuring out Hann's mangled English.

Shame it isn't his fault he is a rock spider...

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